Does Free Will exist?

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Do you think Free Will exists?

Yes
4
50%
No
4
50%
 
Total votes: 8

esquizofrenico
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Re: Does Free Will exist?

Post by esquizofrenico »

But liberty does not contradict the causality principle, in fact causality is indispensable for liberty. I was only free when making a certain decision if the reason why I did something is because I wanted to. Look that this "want" does not talk about a deterministic principle, like my genes told me to do it, I am assuming there is something supernatural in us that allow us to do this supernatural thing that is wanting certain things instead of others, with no kind of deterministic act involved. But still, if I am to assume that I am free, you need to agree that there was the possibility of me wanting other thing, but that I wanted to want a certain thing. And so the regression goes. I am not saying that this disproves free will, it just points to a very mysterious of free will, not only supernatural but almost divine.

I'm not sure about this, but is it possible that you are confusing "free will" with "indeterministic quantum behaviour". If my mind is a superposition of states, each one involving a certain decision, and the collapse of the wave function randomly assigns me an state with a certain decision, that is not free will, at least not in any classical definition. For free will to exists there must be a supernatural component in the decision making process.
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Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Re: Does Free Will exist?

Post by Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz »

mkm wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:48 am
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:27 am Now, I understand you may still not be convinced. You may say "I had orange juice today and I could just have easily had grapefruit juice if I had so wished, and I can not think of any external factor which would have influenced me to have orange juice".
That is not my claim at all. I don't say that nothing influences my judgement, I just say that in many situations I think my will has a decisive role.
I know. This is the example I thought of that you may use to express a situation where your will has a decisive role.
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Lay Vegan
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Re: Does Free Will exist?

Post by Lay Vegan »

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:27 am In short, to my knowledge everything anybody has ever observed themselves doing can be traced back to their desires, which in turn can be traced back to their genetics and environment. Because I have yet to hear from anybody who can recall an event in their lives which can't be traced back to their desires, or to experience such an event for myself, I must conclude that there can't be such an event, that everything that has ever happened is the result of things outside of human beings' control
Well said.

I'm pretty skeptical that free will exists, at least if we're defining free will as "the ability to have acted differently." I'm pretty sure one could refute free will with science alone, and offer some explanation on human behavior being a result of neuro-chemical processes, but I would do it differently. I would argue that every "autonomous" action made is the direct result of a desire.

For example, If I offer you a choice between an Android or an iPhone, you may think you have the complete freedom to choose either, or to choose none at all. But any and all of the choices are a direct result of some desire. You may prefer the faster download speeds of Apple's devices, and opt to purchase the iPhone. Or perhaps you'd prefer a more affordable smart phone, and opt for the Samsung Galaxy. OR perhaps you'd decide your money is best spent on this month's rent, and decide to purchase neither.

In either case, your choice is motivated by the presence of some uncontrolled desire. In the first scenario, the desire is download speed. In the second scenario, the desire is affordability. Neither of which can be "undesired" i.e. we have no control over them. Sure, some desires override others (such the desire to secure a home by paying rent over the desire to communicate with friends via phone) but either way, all of our decisions are derived from uncontrolled desires (or force).


In this sense, the only way one does not make a decision on want (or force) is if a greater want "overrides" the initial want.


Can anyone think of any action that is not based on desires (or force?)
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Re: Does Free Will exist?

Post by mkm »

esquizofrenico wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:44 am But liberty does not contradict the causality principle, in fact causality is indispensable for liberty. I was only free when making a certain decision if the reason why I did something is because I wanted to. Look that this "want" does not talk about a deterministic principle, like my genes told me to do it, I am assuming there is something supernatural in us that allow us to do this supernatural thing that is wanting certain things instead of others, with no kind of deterministic act involved. But still, if I am to assume that I am free, you need to agree that there was the possibility of me wanting other thing, but that I wanted to want a certain thing. And so the regression goes. I am not saying that this disproves free will, it just points to a very mysterious of free will, not only supernatural but almost divine.
Well, lack of concrete definition doesn't help. In the common sense of "want" you may want many (mutually exclusive) things at once, and choose one anyway. Now, let's say you wanted to do something, so you did, but possesing free will should allow you to do something else, for example to want wanting something else, and so on. Is it the existence of infinitely many possibillities that bothers you?
esquizofrenico wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:44 am I'm not sure about this, but is it possible that you are confusing "free will" with "indeterministic quantum behaviour". If my mind is a superposition of states, each one involving a certain decision, and the collapse of the wave function randomly assigns me an state with a certain decision, that is not free will, at least not in any classical definition. For free will to exists there must be a supernatural component in the decision making process.
I'm quite sure that non of classical definitions had any connection to quantum physics :) That said, I agree it's not free will I would like to have, but at least you can then exclude "must" from human behaviour.
Lay Vegan wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:02 pm Can anyone think of any action that is not based on desires (or force?)
That's tricky, since you have already assumed desires-based model of decision-making. If I told you that I desired tea as strongly as coffee, but chose coffee anyway, you would argue that clearly I must have had greater desire for coffee, because it has overrided my desire for tea.
It reminds me the reasoning that no action is altruistic, since commiting even altruistic appearing action makes you feel good about yourself and therefore it was egoistic. Or any other reasoning that tries to explain human bahaviour with a single quality (let it be X). Whatever people do they do it to increase their X (power, happiness, pleasure, etc.), otherwise surely they wouldn't do it. I don't think it leads anywhere.
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Lay Vegan
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Re: Does Free Will exist?

Post by Lay Vegan »

mkm wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:47 pm That's tricky, since you have already assumed desires-based model of decision-making. If I told you that I desired tea as strongly as coffee, but chose coffee anyway, you would argue that clearly I must have had greater desire for coffee, because it has overrided my desire for tea.
Even in this scenario, if one claims to want both tea and coffee equally, the decision to “randomly” select one over the other itself stems from a desire. In the same sense that choosing neither option is the result of an even greater “want” trumping the want to select either tea or coffee.

You may think to yourself "I want tea and coffee equally, but if I choose neither, then I'll get neither." Thus could prompt you to "randomly" select one or the other, just to avoid getting no drink.

You cannot “unwant” the desire to randomly select either one. Wants are beyond our control (hence why I’m not convinced free will exists. But the desire to purposely select tea or coffee can override the desire to randomly select either option.


I have yet to hear of any action that is not the direct result of a want (or physical force).
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Re: Does Free Will exist?

Post by mkm »

Lay Vegan wrote: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:36 pm (...)
I have yet to hear of any action that is not the direct result of a want (or physical force).
I have addressed it already. If you put a desire before any act of will as a deterministic force by default, then sure, you won't hear of any such an action. I have yet to hear a solid argument why should we give so much power to our desires.
EDIT: I also don't buy the part that we have no control over our desires. Let's say I have a choice from multiple options and weigh pros and cons. I analyze my thoughts, propable outcomes, and so on, coming up with new "desires" that ok, maybe push me to choose one of the options, but am I not the source of these desires, and thus, acting freely? Even if it was a desire to anylyze the situation, which forced me to do this?
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Lay Vegan
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Re: Does Free Will exist?

Post by Lay Vegan »

mkm wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:54 pm I have addressed it already. If you put a desire before any act of will as a deterministic force by default, then sure, you won't hear of any such an action. I have yet to hear a solid argument why should we give so much power to our desires.
I'm not arguing that we acquiesce to our desires, merely that were are slaves to our desires regardless. We have no autonomy over our wants, but act only in accordance with them. Sure, we can "reason" our way to act out some desires over others, and this masquerades as free-will, but in reality it is the result of one inadverdant desire overriding another.

For example;

One may desire to eat ice cream and sit on the couch all day, rather than go to work. After a moment of reflection and considering the situation, he may realize that he has already used up all of his sick days, and that taking off any more days will cut into his paycheck. Should he get a lower paycheck this week, he will miss his rent and be evicted. Therefore, he decides to go to work.

It may look as though he had the complete autonomy to either stay home and eventually get evicted, or to go to work, but really the desire to maintain his home “overrode” his desire to relax and eat ice cream. Desires which he has no control over.
mkm wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:54 pm I also don't buy the part that we have no control over our desires. Let's say I have a choice from multiple options and weigh pros and cons. I analyze my thoughts, propable outcomes, and so on, coming up with new "desires" that ok, maybe push me to choose one of the options, but am I not the source of these desires, and thus, acting freely? Even if it was a desire to anylyze the situation, which forced me to do this?
The desire to reason and analyze the pro’s, con’s, and possible outcomes. Did you “create” this desire? Or does this desire exist regardless? Can you “unwant” the want to reason? Or does the want to act abruptly trump the desire to reason?
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Re: Does Free Will exist?

Post by mkm »

Lay Vegan wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:42 pm I'm not arguing that we acquiesce to our desires, merely that were are slaves to our desires regardless. We have no autonomy over our wants, but act only in accordance with them. Sure, we can "reason" our way to act out some desires over others, and this masquerades as free-will, but in reality it is the result of one inadverdant desire overriding another.
Why don't we haveeven some degree of an autonomy over our wants?
Lay Vegan wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:42 pm For example;

One may desire to eat ice cream and sit on the couch all day, rather than go to work. After a moment of reflection and considering the situation, he may realize that he has already used up all of his sick days, and that taking off any more days will cut into his paycheck. Should he get a lower paycheck this week, he will miss his rent and be evicted. Therefore, he decides to go to work.

It may look as though he had the complete autonomy to either stay home and eventually get evicted, or to go to work, but really the desire to maintain his home “overrode” his desire to relax and eat ice cream. Desires which he has no control over.
It clarifies nothing. All you do is just notice, that he has made a decision, and then you put this struggle of desires behind it. It doesn't prove that any of these desires had a destination-like powers.
Lay Vegan wrote: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:42 pm The desire to reason and analyze the pro’s, con’s, and possible outcomes. Did you “create” this desire? Or does this desire exist regardless? Can you “unwant” the want to reason? Or does the want to act abruptly trump the desire to reason?
I focused my mind and they came up. And now you claim, that there was some desire behind it, which forced me to do this, although nobody, including me and you, can catch this desire "at work". You see a black box, and you put there desires with superpowers. You sort of admit that there is no act of will you would deem free, so your model of decision-making isn't even falsifiable. Unfalsifiable theories are useless, since they are too flexible and can "explain" anything.
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Re: Does Free Will exist?

Post by Lay Vegan »

I’m not necessarily a hard-core determinist. I’m just rather skeptical of this kind of “libertarian” free will you seem to be pushing. It’s pleasant and perhaps reassuring to think we have complete autonomy over our desires, but more importantly, it’s unconvincing.
mkm wrote: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:51 am Why don't we haveeven some degree of an autonomy over our wants?
We have no control over them because we exist in and are a part of the physical world, and thus bound by its natural laws. The cause of the decision to select chocolate ice cream over vanilla ice cream is a result of mental states as the result of neurochemical states as the result of physical states. Philosophically, I’d describe this as the presence of inadvertent “desires” that influence every decision one makes. These desires, or wants which simply exist, cannot be “unwanted.” You cannot “unwant” chocolate ice cream. A greater desire can come into fruition to select vanilla over chocolate, or a desire to select neither, but neither desire is a product of free will. You do not have autonomy over your wants because you do not have autonomy over physical states.
mkm wrote: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:51 am It clarifies nothing. All you do is just notice, that he has made a decision, and then you put this struggle of desires behind it. It doesn't prove that any of these desires had a destination-like powers.
Sure, we may not be able to point out every factor that influenced his decision to stay home or go to work, but we can theorize that his decision was driven an analgom of desires and temperments.
mkm wrote: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:51 am I focused my mind and they came up. And now you claim, that there was some desire behind it, which forced me to do this, although nobody, including me and you, can catch this desire "at work". You see a black box, and you put there desires with superpowers. You sort of admit that there is no act of will you would deem free, so your model of decision-making isn't even falsifiable. Unfalsifiable theories are useless, since they are too flexible and can "explain" anything.
In what way is determism unfalsifiable? In the scientific sense? Perhaps, but so if every other philosophy. I’m not convinced it’s unfalsifiable in the philosophical sense, specifically if a determinist believes in the concept of moral responsibility (how can we held responsible for actions we have no control over?)
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Re: Does Free Will exist?

Post by mkm »

Lay Vegan wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:36 am I’m not necessarily a hard-core determinist. I’m just rather skeptical of this kind of “libertarian” free will you seem to be pushing. It’s pleasant and perhaps reassuring to think we have complete autonomy over our desires, but more importantly, it’s unconvincing.
At which point am I pushing anything? I even stated before that having to choose between the two, I see no reasons to go full determinist. I just don't observe these actors you call desires, that force me to do things. Do you? I don't think so, because everytime you talk about them you have to make them up and put them into a narration of some sort of struggle, where the strongest desire wins and determine someone's actions.
Lay Vegan wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:36 am We have no control over them because we exist in and are a part of the physical world, and thus bound by its natural laws.
Being bounded by natural laws doesn't mean someone doesn't act freely. I cannot jump out of the window an fly on a whim, but it doesn't matter. We may as well act freely within the frame of physics, logic, and whatnot.
Lay Vegan wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:36 am The cause of the decision to select chocolate ice cream over vanilla ice cream is a result of mental states as the result of neurochemical states as the result of physical states.
That assertion is unverifiable at best, and false at worst. It was true in Newtonian mechanics though, but it doesn't matter today.
Lay Vegan wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:36 am Philosophically, I’d describe this as the presence of inadvertent “desires” that influence every decision one makes. These desires, or wants which simply exist, cannot be “unwanted.” You cannot “unwant” chocolate ice cream. A greater desire can come into fruition to select vanilla over chocolate, or a desire to select neither, but neither desire is a product of free will. You do not have autonomy over your wants because you do not have autonomy over physical states.
You just repeat your assumption, now referring to "physical state", which according to the consensus, doesn't determine things the way you describe it. And clearly, I can "unwant" things, at least to the point to not to fall for them. I know you will say, that there just new desire pop out that forced me to do something else, and I addressed it above.
Lay Vegan wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:36 am Sure, we may not be able to point out every factor that influenced his decision to stay home or go to work, but we can theorize that his decision was driven an analgom of desires and temperments.
Sure, and I can change the narration and replace desires with cosmic rays from the fifth dimension, and it will be as useful, as it is now. And no, it's not that I don't observe desires, just desires that I observe doesn't work as described by you, so they are unobservables for me and have empty meaning right now. Just like cosmic rays from fifth dimension for that matter.
Lay Vegan wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:36 am In what way is determism unfalsifiable? In the scientific sense? Perhaps, but so if every other philosophy. I’m not convinced it’s unfalsifiable in the philosophical sense, specifically if a determinist believes in the concept of moral responsibility (how can we held responsible for actions we have no control over?)
Nope, physics, which I would still consider a part of philosophy, is falsifiable for the most part. It operates with concepts and objects that are unobservable too, but at least described actions of these objects can be verified. So if you admit that you can explain every decision as a struggle of desires, that determines actions... What gives?
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