Abortion- Morality/Women's rights

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PsYcHo
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Abortion- Morality/Women's rights

Post by PsYcHo »

As a man, abortion has always been something on the periphery, because I've never had to/ never will have to consider having one. For that reason, I've always considered myself pro-choice.

In past years, I've been thinking more about morality in general, so my thoughts have evolved a bit on it. In cases of rape, or incest, or possible harm to the mother, I'm still 100% pro-choice. But in cases of "uhh, it just felt good so I kept going/ condom broke/ alcohol may have been a factor", I'm now more inclined to think of that as morally wrong. That being said, I still do not think there should be a law against abortion for any reason. I don't have a womb, so I can only consider this from an academic perspective, not a real world one.

I know this is a hot-button topic, but I don't want it to devolve into two differing sides yelling political talking points at each other.

So I will kindly ask, please just discuss points and feel free to make your opinion heard. And if you disagree, try to consider the other person's point before you reply. ( You know that Bob Ross guy who painted on PBS? Try to keep that tone.)

Is abortion moral? (for my question, it doesn't refer to cases of rape/incest/harm to mother)

Should there be a law(s) for or against it?

edit- I tend to engage in most of my topics, but for this one I plan to stay out of it for a while. I'd like to hear other people's thoughts and see that discussion, so this isn't a direct debate with me, more of a discussion of the topic I've presented.
Alcohol may have been a factor.

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carnap
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Re: Abortion- Morality/Women's rights

Post by carnap »

I don't think having a womb is relevant to the ethical or political issues at play here.

I tend to think abortion is problematic and don't agree with framing it as a "women's right" issue which is often done. The critical issue is whether the fetus has any moral agency and its by no means clear when that occurs.

I don't think an outright ban is appropriate because whether you support it or not seems to hinge on some tricky philosophic and religious ideas and one shouldn't be forced into those beliefs. On the other hand greater regulations and restricts may be justified.
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
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Re: Abortion- Morality/Women's rights

Post by mkm »

How being a woman matters here?

First issue is that, as carnap pointed out, whether fetuses are morally relevant. Or at which stage, since sooner or later they become morally relevant, and I fail to see why birth is a game changer. I know I wouldn't want to be aborted at any stage. So, if we grant fetuses some moral relevance, then I guess you could argue that it's immoral to have an abortion on a whim. If a woman knows the "risk" of getting pregnant by coitus and the act was censensual, then having an abortion is like breaking a contract by which she obligated to deliver a fetus in 9 months in case of getting pregnant. I would compare it to inviting someone for a cruise on your yacht and after sailing into open sea you change your mind and throw that person overboard. A libertarian framework is propably close to your heart, so here you are ;) We may extend that comparison to other situations. For example if someone put unwanted passenger in your yacht, and he eats your supplies, is not communicative, lowers your quality of life, then propably you should be free to choose whether you want to deal with it or not and ask him/force him to leave, even if it means his death.
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EquALLity
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Re: Abortion- Morality/Women's rights

Post by EquALLity »

I agree that it's not a women's rights issue. I consider a woman's rights issue an issue in which women are being treated unequally to men. Women can't be treated unequally to men in this situation, because men don't get pregnant and therefore aren't treated in any way regarding this situation. This is just an issue that involves the choices of women, not a women's rights issue.

I generally am pro-choice. It is unclear when exactly the fetus begins to feel pain and have emotions, but there is a large part of the pregnancy in which the fetus doesn't, and for that period of time I believe abortion is completely morally acceptable.
carnap wrote:I tend to think abortion is problematic and don't agree with framing it as a "women's right" issue which is often done. The critical issue is whether the fetus has any moral agency and its by no means clear when that occurs.
Why do you tend to think abortion is problematic?
mkm wrote: First issue is that, as carnap pointed out, whether fetuses are morally relevant. Or at which stage, since sooner or later they become morally relevant, and I fail to see why birth is a game changer.
The pro-choice side doesn't claim that birth is a game changer. This is why third trimester abortions aren't legal.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Abortion- Morality/Women's rights

Post by brimstoneSalad »

The fetus does not feel pain before the third trimester (about 27 weeks) https://www.livescience.com/54774-fetal-pain-anesthesia.html And probably isn't sentient before that point either... so then it's not *wrong*, however it may represent a failure to do something good (having a child who will lead a happy life and contribute to the world).

If you were going to have 2 kids either way, then it's not wrong to have an early-term abortion and wait a year to have a child at a better time/with a better father.
However, it MAY be immoral to wait too long to have a child (because risk of things like down syndrome increases). So, sometimes it makes more sense to go ahead and have the child... it's an issue very sensitive to situation.
PsYcHo wrote: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:30 am But in cases of "uhh, it just felt good so I kept going/ condom broke/ alcohol may have been a factor", I'm now more inclined to think of that as morally wrong.
It's morally wrong to have a child when you may have been exposed to alcohol or other harmful drugs during its development too. Like deliberately having a baby with a severe disability; the child has to suffer that, and so does society.
We also have to ask about the social effects of somebody having a child when ill-prepared for it, in terms of just being a bad parent for whatever reasons.

Sometimes having an abortion (even third trimester) can be the least morally wrong option among many bad options.
PsYcHo wrote: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:30 amThat being said, I still do not think there should be a law against abortion for any reason.
Right, even if abortion is wrong, it should not be illegal. The evidence shows that illegalizing abortions doesn't reduce abortions, people just DIY or go to shady clinics/take medications to do it.

All laws against abortion do is harm women who feel they have no choice but to have one.

What DOES help is sex education and birth control.
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Re: Abortion- Morality/Women's rights

Post by mkm »

brimstoneSalad,

Is ability to feel pain or being sentient be-all end-all, when it comes to morality? Rocks don't feel pain and have no sentience, and I can't agree that a fetus and a rock are morally equivalent.
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PsYcHo
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Re: Abortion- Morality/Women's rights

Post by PsYcHo »

mkm wrote: Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:59 pm A libertarian framework is propably close to your heart, so here you are ;)
Oh you devil. Flattery will get you nowhere.. :twisted:
mkm wrote: Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:59 pm We may extend that comparison to other situations.

For example if someone put unwanted passenger in your yacht, and he eats your supplies, is not communicative, lowers your quality of life, then propably you should be free to choose whether you want to deal with it or not and ask him/force him to leave, even if it means his death.
I have to challenge this, because you are leaving out an important part.

If I was knowledgeable that pulling into a particular port would likely result in an unwanted passenger, and I didn't take precautions to keep that passenger off my yacht, would it still be moral for me to kill the unwanted passenger? Sure, I knew that by pulling into that port there was a decent chance this unwanted passenger would end up on my yacht, but I did it anyway. And yep, that damn passenger wound up on my yacht. Does that make it moral to kill it?
Alcohol may have been a factor.

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PsYcHo
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Re: Abortion- Morality/Women's rights

Post by PsYcHo »

brimstoneSalad wrote: Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:27 pm
It's morally wrong to have a child when you may have been exposed to alcohol or other harmful drugs during its development too. Like deliberately having a baby with a severe disability; the child has to suffer that, and so does society.
Not to counter any particular points you've made, but just to provide a possibly different perspective. (Or maybe to agree; depends on how you look at it.)

I was born a few months premature; my mother was an underage (teen) alcoholic. I don't know about her being on drugs, but considering my birth family, I'm guessing likely. My first months were in an incubator, because I was too small to survive otherwise.
Alcohol may have been a factor.

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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Abortion- Morality/Women's rights

Post by brimstoneSalad »

There are always counter-examples to everything, we just have to look at what will usually have the best consequences.

Of course unwanted children help a lot of people get their acts together and change their lives for the better... but not always. Often the opposite is the result, and it prevents people from being able to lift themselves out of poverty.
PsYcHo wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:37 pm If I was knowledgeable that pulling into a particular port would likely result in an unwanted passenger, and I didn't take precautions to keep that passenger off my yacht, would it still be moral for me to kill the unwanted passenger?
It wouldn't change the morality of killing that unwanted passenger, but it would make pulling into that port without taking precautions immoral if you weren't prepared to care for a stowaway until he or she could get off if you knew there was a good chance it'd happen.

Sorry, I'll leave you guys to it.
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PsYcHo
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Re: Abortion- Morality/Women's rights

Post by PsYcHo »

brimstoneSalad wrote: Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:08 am Sorry, I'll leave you guys to it.
Ditto
Alcohol may have been a factor.

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