Avoiding intuitive contradictions with sentience and morality
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Avoiding intuitive contradictions with sentience and morality
Generally, people are very willing to accept that animals can be considered inferior to us and to each other ethically based upon their sentience. It works out pretty well and I think is one of the most important things to indicate to non-vegans when conversing with them. However, the application of this principle to humans often yields mixed results. Children and the severely intellectually disabled being two prime examples. Parental instinct along with cultural intuitions about protecting the weak make it very hard for people to see the inherent inferiority of children to adults. Of course, considering things such as family may make them more valuable ethically, but on their own, they tend to be lesser. Same with the disabled: especially with liberals, it is considered ignorant and heinous to question the value of the intellectually disabled.
Should this be omitted from conversations about ethics, unless specifically brought up? How can the blow be softened for people drunk with the ideal of equality?
Should this be omitted from conversations about ethics, unless specifically brought up? How can the blow be softened for people drunk with the ideal of equality?
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Re: Avoiding intuitive contradictions with sentience and morality
Yes, it's best to avoid the topic of human differences.Cirion Spellbinder wrote: ↑Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:23 am Should this be omitted from conversations about ethics, unless specifically brought up?
You can talk about the utility of human rights, and how we must treat all people as having equal and inalienable social value due to the importance to social contract.Cirion Spellbinder wrote: ↑Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:23 amHow can the blow be softened for people drunk with the ideal of equality?
But outside that social contract (with non-human animals) their moral value is what's relevant.
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Re: Avoiding intuitive contradictions with sentience and morality
What do you mean by "inherent inferiority of children"? Inferior in what sense? For example I'm pretty sure everyone will acknowledge that children are cognitively inferior to adults. And what do you mean by "value"? Moral value?Cirion Spellbinder wrote: ↑Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:23 am Parental instinct along with cultural intuitions about protecting the weak make it very hard for people to see the inherent inferiority of children to adults. Of course, considering things such as family may make them more valuable ethically, but on their own, they tend to be lesser. Same with the disabled: especially with liberals, it is considered ignorant and heinous to question the value of the intellectually disabled.
Whether you should talk about these things depends on what you're trying to do. If you're talking about moral philosophy its just fine, if you're trying to convince one to be vegan perhaps not.
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
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Re: Avoiding intuitive contradictions with sentience and morality
For whatever reason carnap, I read your posts like you’re angry at me!
Cognitively inferior and therefore morally inferior. Do you disagree with this?
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Re: Avoiding intuitive contradictions with sentience and morality
I wouldn't agree with that and I don't think many people would as well. For example is someone with an IQ of 100 morally inferior to someone with a IQ of 150? And what does it mean to be "morally inferior" in the first place?Cirion Spellbinder wrote: ↑Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:01 pm Cognitively inferior and therefore morally inferior. Do you disagree with this?
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
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Re: Avoiding intuitive contradictions with sentience and morality
Negligibly inferior because IQ increases mean less and less in terms intelligence as scores increase, but yes.
Since one can only do good or evil to sentient beings, the degree of the sentience must be related to the goodness and evilness of particular actions. For example, it is less evil to kill a bug than a man due to the huge disparity of sentience, and so we might call the bug morally inferior to the man as he can create less good and receive less evil.And what does it mean to be "morally inferior" in the first place?
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Re: Avoiding intuitive contradictions with sentience and morality
I wouldn't agree with that but I think the more important question is what is meant by "inferior' here. That isn't clear at all.Cirion Spellbinder wrote: ↑Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:37 am Negligibly inferior because IQ increases mean less and less in terms intelligence as scores increase, but yes.
Goodness or evilness? What do you mean by those? Something to akin to Christian morality?Cirion Spellbinder wrote: ↑Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:37 am Since one can only do good or evil to sentient beings, the degree of the sentience must be related to the goodness and evilness of particular actions. For example, it is less evil to kill a bug than a man due to the huge disparity of sentience, and so we might call the bug morally inferior to the man as he can create less good and receive less evil.
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
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Re: Avoiding intuitive contradictions with sentience and morality
Good is defined as the fulfillment of interest and evil is defined as the violation of interest. Therefore, the goodness / evilness of an action is proportional to its fulfillment of good / evil, respectively. I couldn’t see it as similar to Christian morality since that is more deontological. Sorry for the confusion.
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Re: Avoiding intuitive contradictions with sentience and morality
Interest in what sense? So would the goodness (or evilness) of me stealing a new car hinge on who had greater interests in the car? How do you compare interests? Is a rats interest in having a warm place to sleep greater than my interest in having a rodent free home?Cirion Spellbinder wrote: ↑Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:46 am Good is defined as the fulfillment of interest and evil is defined as the violation of interest. Therefore, the goodness / evilness of an action is proportional to its fulfillment of good / evil, respectively. I couldn’t see it as similar to Christian morality since that is more deontological. Sorry for the confusion.
I think your definition just creates more questions where as it should be clarifying the concepts.
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
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Re: Avoiding intuitive contradictions with sentience and morality
Interest meaning desire.
If you and the other person were the only beings with interests, yes. Otherwise, it would favor the car owners, as the consistent maintenance of the law provides a much greater fulfillment of interest than you may suffer in violation.So would the goodness (or evilness) of me stealing a new car hinge on who had greater interests in the car?
In one on one comparisons, the degree of sentience of desirerer and the degree of desire are proportional to the worthiness of fulfilling o e interest over another. As you introduce more beings, you have to consider the consequences of an interest and how that will probably impact other interests.How do you compare interests?
Certainly not, as the rat is far less sentient than you and there is no others vouching for the rat’s interest.Is a rats interest in having a warm place to sleep greater than my interest in having a rodent free home?
Oof.I think your definition just creates more questions where as it should be clarifying the concepts.