Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

General philosophy message board for Discussion and debate on other philosophical issues not directly related to veganism. Metaphysics, religion, theist vs. atheist debates, politics, general science discussion, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
PsYcHo
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1166
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:24 pm
Diet: Pescetarian

Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by PsYcHo »

brimstoneSalad wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:13 pm
Not worried about people lying about their own beliefs, or even making conspiratorial claims about the secret beliefs of others, more about provable things.

I would go so far as to require them to provide footnote style references and declaimers like secular companies have to do when they make claims.

For example, if they say "the Bible says X*" they should have to follow with "*Based on our interpretation of John 6:12" just as a secular organization has to say "*based on some studies which suggest more people X than Y" or whatever.
Then people can fact check it themselves and understand fully the claim being made.
But the churches we are discussing can in fact provide those interpretations. Both A and B.

It is not a lie to say homosexuality is a sin. It is also not a lie to say that Jesus forgives all sinners who ask for it, so the case could be made both that

1. Being gay will send you to hell. God finds it detestable. (The whole Leviticus nonsense) Not being against gays means you are for being gay, which will lead you to hell.

2. As long as you ask for forgiveness, you can be gay and go to heaven. Even if you sin daily.

While I am certainly no fan of Islam, they found a way to try and settle confilicts in their holy book(s) -abrogation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_%28tafsir%29

Christians have no such doctrine, so the belief on what is true depends on the person who reads it, interprets it, and who they learned their interpretation from.

It would be nearly impossible, and a waste of both money and time to try and legislate against religious lying in 99% of cases.

Now if a priest tells his parishioners that it say in the bible that they should all allow their young sons to live with the priest, for reasons, then yes, that is a lie that cannot be defended by the bible. Church A vs. Church B is just a differing of interpretations, some of which are a thousand years old.
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
User avatar
EquALLity
I am God
Posts: 3022
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:31 am
Diet: Vegan
Location: United States of Canada

Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by EquALLity »

brimstoneSalad wrote:It's not. A company can not slander another and say false things about its products either.
The key is statements of provable fact.
I don't think it is a provable fact whether or not a church supports homosexuality. If a church believes another church promotes homosexuality, that is their opinion. Just because the other church denies that they do so doesn't mean that the other church cannot have and express a different interpretation.
Any number of scams. None use force.
They tell you they'll give you X in exchange for your money, and they take it and don't give you X because they don't even have X.
I think we should focus on one topic at a time. Currently, we are discussing whether or not the government should stop a church from making a statement about another church that the other church does not feel accurately represents them.
So is hell.

And don't say it's a third party so it's OK.
If I go into a bank and say
"I don't have a gun or anything, but my boss is undercover in this bank with a bomb strapped to his body under his clothes, he's watching us and he will kill you all if you don't give me money", that's a threat too.

I would go to jail for that if I did that. How about the same standards for religions extorting money from people under threat?
It is a personal choice to believe in Hell, but I think we should address one thing at a time.
Well, legally provable facts don't count. You should look into libel law.
An opinion cannot be legally proven.
I don't think they are. They're both selling products. One happens to be a protection racket.
As I mentioned above, I think we should discuss one issue at a time, but we can talk about that after if you want to.
"I am not a Marxist." -Karl Marx
User avatar
brimstoneSalad
neither stone nor salad
Posts: 10273
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 9:20 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

My point isn't about banning "wrong" interpretations. My point is ascribing explicit views to others that they don't claim, and that contradict what they say.
PsYcHo wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:32 pmNow if a priest tells his parishioners that it say in the bible that they should all allow their young sons to live with the priest, for reasons, then yes, that is a lie that cannot be defended by the bible.
That could just be another interpretation too, but he should have to cite the verses he is using to get that interpretation so other people can judge its credibility.

EquALLity wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:38 pm I don't think it is a provable fact whether or not a church supports homosexuality.
Whether they secretly do, or tacitly do, or in effect by way of not condemning it, those are opinions.
But as to whether that is the church's actual public position is a matter of fact.
EquALLity wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:38 pmIf a church believes another church promotes homosexuality, that is their opinion. Just because the other church denies that they do so doesn't mean that the other church cannot have and express a different interpretation.
Secretly or tacitly, sure. Or even in effect based on the "with us or against us" mentality. But not overtly.

This kind of stuff is established already in court precedent. It just doesn't apply to religions.
User avatar
PsYcHo
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1166
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:24 pm
Diet: Pescetarian

Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by PsYcHo »

So how much money and resources should go into determining whether a church is lying about another church? Or just in general, if a "religion" is fraudulent?

I think everyone on this thread agrees that intentionally lying for any of the reasons a church/religion may do so is wrong, but there is a vast divide on what should be done about it, plus a divide on whether its occurrence is intentional.

Do we need church police sitting in all congregations, asking to see a full explanation of all sermons to be filed in case of legal challenges, complete with biblical footnotes?

Should infractions start with a fine, and eventually lead to higher fines up to and including incarceration?

How would we legislate such laws across differing religions? Muslims have many differing views. If one mosque preaches tolerance and declares another mosque to not be following the teachings of the Prophet, but the "intolerant" mosque is found to have more closely followed the Koran, what fines/penalties should be imposed upon the tolerant mosque?; they were the fraudulent ones in this scenario.

What about Hinduism? Their religion is vast, with differing deities, and they have been arguing for thousands of years. How should the government solve conflicts between followers of Vishnu making claims about followers of Ganesha, who in turn make claims against followers of Brahma?


Government intervention is not a solution to this problem.
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
User avatar
Greatest I am
Senior Member
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:24 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by Greatest I am »

respuestasveganas wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:04 pm I think that religions should be regulated and outside the public institutions of the State.

Religions are usually based on obedience, not on material reality or logical reality (A = A).
Obeying with your body is an effect on your body but I think I know what you mean and agree.

Religions have become quite uppity and need to remember that they are here to serve us and not profiteer from defrauding us with constant lying.

Regards
DL
User avatar
Greatest I am
Senior Member
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:24 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by Greatest I am »

PsYcHo wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:32 pm
It is not a lie to say homosexuality is a sin. It is also not a lie to say that Jesus forgives all sinners who ask for it, so the case could be made both that

1. Being gay will send you to hell. God finds it detestable. (The whole Leviticus nonsense) Not being against gays means you are for being gay, which will lead you to hell.
To sin, one must have an evil intent.

Please tell us what or where the evil intent is in two gays women enjoying each others company and choosing to marry.

If you were in front of the woman in this clip, she would give you the look she gave to her bishop.

You are discriminating against your brothers without a just cause and you would not like that done to you if nature had decided to turn on or off a few genes in you and made you gay.

If you cannot do unto others, you are not the most moral of men.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/11/08/minnesota.catholic.gay.marriage/index.html?eref=rss_latest&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_latest+%28RSS%3A+Most+Recent%29

Regards
DL
User avatar
Greatest I am
Senior Member
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:24 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by Greatest I am »

PsYcHo wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:32 pm
It is not a lie to say homosexuality is a sin. It is also not a lie to say that Jesus forgives all sinners who ask for it, so the case could be made both that

1. Being gay will send you to hell. God finds it detestable. (The whole Leviticus nonsense) Not being against gays means you are for being gay, which will lead you to hell.

2. As long as you ask for forgiveness, you can be gay and go to heaven. Even if you sin daily.
You bear false witness a lot. Are you in the clergy?

What you put is all faith based fantasy.

Do you really think Jesus to be prick enough that he would create a hell?

As to the God you have, if all he will do with nearly all of us in hell, is torture or kill us purposelessly, I will ignore the first Commandment and find a moral God to put above that prick.

Why are you not doing that?

As to your number 2, if you continue to discriminate and denigrate gays daily, you will be using that clause.

Regards
DL
User avatar
Greatest I am
Senior Member
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:24 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by Greatest I am »

EquALLity wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:38 pm
brimstoneSalad wrote:It's not. A company can not slander another and say false things about its products either.
The key is statements of provable fact.
I don't think it is a provable fact whether or not a church supports homosexuality.
What is wrong with just asking.

You will find a % of yes and no answers. The number are irrelevant to this moral issue.

The church has not provided a just cause for it's discrimination and denigration of gays and women.

Homophobes = bullies at heart.

If you support discrimination against gays and women, you support discrimination without a just cause.

Regards
DL
User avatar
Greatest I am
Senior Member
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:24 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by Greatest I am »

EquALLity wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:38 pm
I think we should focus on one topic at a time. Currently, we are discussing whether or not the government should stop a church from making a statement about another church that the other church does not feel accurately represents them.
IOW, should slander laws be enforced? Yes, but they are not.

We currently allow the open fraud of the general population by religions and on the take politicians, so I doubt that you will get movement on slander enforcement.

Enforcement would have to admit their own incompetence and failings and they are not about to recognize their own noble lie.

Regards
DL
User avatar
Greatest I am
Senior Member
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:24 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by Greatest I am »

EquALLity wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:38 pm
An opinion cannot be legally proven.
A self evident lie, as well as true.

You state an opinion on opinions and speak as a judge.

You cannot speak for the legal system my friend.

Law is opinion and thus cannot be absolute. It, like our species must evolve. We do this naturally and that is why the world is getting more moral.

Regards
DL

P.S One think at a time is sometimes best.
Post Reply