Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

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Greatest I am
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Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

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Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

https://www.google.ca/search?source=hp&ei=wRyUWquFHcm4tQXV74XQBw&q=fraud+laws&oq=fraud+laws&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l10.1003.11584.0.15863.10.10.0.0.0.0.114.1040.3j7.10.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.10.1037...0i131k1.0.nCgTyqsYAOA

Fraud is a broad term that refers to a variety of offenses involving dishonesty or "fraudulent acts". In essence, fraud is the intentional deception of a person or entity by another made for monetary or personal gain. Fraud offenses always include some sort of false statement, misrepresentation, or deceitful conduct.

Most governments and countries have fraud laws of some kinds. They generally interfere with religious fraudsters only when physical harm is being done to our gullible citizens yet ignore the monetary theft that the fraudsters fleece from their victims. Prosperity ministries are the most flagrant of these immoral religions, but all religions based on demonstrable lies would be included in this question.

Our governments are quite good at acting against obvious fraudsters yet seem reluctant to protect our more gullible citizens when it comes down to religions.

Religions, to me, get a free pass to lie and steal all they can from victims, especially the older citizens even when governments know about the fraud.

I begin to see the inaction of governments on these religious fraudsters as a dereliction of duty.

Do you?

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DL
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Good post.

I would say yes.

I think anti-scientific or non-factual claims from religions should also be restricted, and not be allowed in public advertisement. Belief statements are one thing, but claims are another. And disclaimers should be offered.

Rather than
"Repent or burn in hell"

Religions should have to say:

"In the Bible, Rom 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
We believe* this means that you will burn in hell if you do not repent, but go to heaven if you repent.
*This is not a literal interpretation.
*There is no empirical evidence for this."
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PsYcHo
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by PsYcHo »

I would say no.

If it were dependent on actual verifiable proof, all religions would be deemed fraudulent; none of them can bring their deity(ies) to testify to their validity.

All religions should be held to the same standard by the government. "You're free to practice whatever you want as long as it does not infringe on another individuals rights." And that is all. No tax breaks. (i'd prefer no taxes all around, but I digress) No preferential treatment, no laws for or against your religion, provided that it does not infringe on ANYONE else's rights.

Simple solution!
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

PsYcHo wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:44 pm I would say no.

If it were dependent on actual verifiable proof, all religions would be deemed fraudulent; none of them can bring their deity(ies) to testify to their validity.
It wouldn't have to be verifiable proof: just not verifiable falsification.

Some religions ask for donations promising real physical things in this life in return (the source is magical, but the thing is actual). Promises could range from magical material gains to healed physical ailments.
I think that would be pretty easy to crack down on without infringing on the rights of other religions to practice that don't do that kind of thing, or only offer abstract spiritual type rewards in this life and in particular don't demand money for them (which is most).

Taking away their tax breaks would be a good start, though.
Some religions do charitable work, but it would be relatively easy for them to start non-profit subsidiaries that don't enure funds to the main body of the church, and which accept people from any faith to work in/with them and don't push a religious message without charging the church fair market value for the advertising in competition with secular advertising and reporting those gains as unrelated business income (which is taxed).
And, of course, having a board of directors (who could be of any faith) who might choose to cut ties with that church at some point if the church was not benefiting the charitable organization.
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

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brimstoneSalad wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:43 am Some religions ask for donations promising real physical things in this life in return
And they should be free to do so. But if they use their ideology to do good, what does it matter if they are a "fraudulent" religion. Government has no place regulating for or against them, providing that they do not harm anyone.

If the church of "Reptile Overlords" convinces its congregation to donate to help victims of a natural disaster, great. If the same "Reptile Overlords" convinces its congregation to donate money to build a fully aluminum temple to worship in so the "Insectoids" can't read their thoughts, well, that's fraudulent, but it doesn't harm anyone, so I see no problem. The people who would donate (even to their detriment) would likely have wasted their donation money anyways.

Government should not be in the business of protecting people from their own bad decisions. (Insectoids be praised. :twisted: )
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
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Greatest I am
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by Greatest I am »

brimstoneSalad wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:32 pm Good post.

I would say yes.

I think anti-scientific or non-factual claims from religions should also be restricted, and not be allowed in public advertisement. Belief statements are one thing, but claims are another. And disclaimers should be offered.

Rather than
"Repent or burn in hell"

Religions should have to say:

"In the Bible, Rom 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
We believe* this means that you will burn in hell if you do not repent, but go to heaven if you repent.
*This is not a literal interpretation.
*There is no empirical evidence for this."
Good reply and point of view.

If you were a pro-bono lawyer, I would lay a charge against all the supernaturally based religions.

I agree that a belief is one thing, but when it turns into a claim of reality, then it is a lie and fraud if that lie is told to get the listeners cash.

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DL
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by Greatest I am »

PsYcHo wrote: Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:44 pm I would say no.

If it were dependent on actual verifiable proof, all religions would be deemed fraudulent; none of them can bring their deity(ies) to testify to their validity.

All religions should be held to the same standard by the government. "You're free to practice whatever you want as long as it does not infringe on another individuals rights." And that is all. No tax breaks. (i'd prefer no taxes all around, but I digress) No preferential treatment, no laws for or against your religion, provided that it does not infringe on ANYONE else's rights.

Simple solution!
What, if not religions, which have held the majority of the population forever, is responsible for most wars, homophobia and misogyny in the world?

What religion has not infringed on the rights of gays and women?

Regards
DL
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by Greatest I am »

PsYcHo wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:28 am
Government should not be in the business of protecting people from their own bad decisions. (Insectoids be praised. :twisted: )
I generally agree with this, but I also think governments have a duty to protect people from fraudsters.

Decisions based on lies, indoctrination and brain washing of our children when young, when they reach adulthood, are not really freely made decisions. No decisions based on the supernatural belief should be considered a sane decision.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsoC10TFCy4

Unrelated but pertinent in showing what religious lies causes.

https://clarionproject.org/fgm-now-mandatory-in-somaliland/

"Initial reports on the fatwa stated that the government had made Type I FGM mandatory for all girls in Somaliland."

Lies are a slippery slope and to not protect the gullible from them is not only the government's dereliction of duty but also a dereliction of duty in all of us.

Regards
DL
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

PsYcHo wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:28 am And they should be free to do so. But if they use their ideology to do good, what does it matter if they are a "fraudulent" religion.
In theory that would be fine, but in practice there seems to be a very strong correlation between the religions that do the most evil in the world and promise (or threaten) things in this life, demanding cash donations.
The religions that do charity tend to be too focused on doing good to bother with prosperity gospel nonsense. It's likely in the people they attract: evil religions attract selfish people (and, unfortunately, the needy who are deceived and will never have much power in their establishment), while the good ones attract people who want to do good in this life and aren't as worried about mortal rewards (generous people who want to give, not take).
PsYcHo wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:28 amGovernment has no place regulating for or against them, providing that they do not harm anyone.
I think the issue is that they are doing harm.
Some of these religions extort people's life savings from them, leaving them in poverty, with empty promises that they'll get back more than they gave in material wealth.

PsYcHo wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:28 amThe people who would donate (even to their detriment) would likely have wasted their donation money anyways.
I don't think there's any reason to believe that the archetypal little old lady who loses her house would have blown all of her savings on hookers and coke if she hadn't been conned and promised a cure of her Arthritis, or that god would ensure her a much larger windfall that would make it so she can afford her medication and send her grandchildren to college.

The people who this affects worst are otherwise frugal, but vulnerable. The next most likely thing to happen to that money may be an email scam by a Nigerian Prince, and maybe she was too gullible to hold onto that money for long, but I don't think that justifies letting the culprits get away free when we can reach them.
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Re: Should Governments regulate fraudulent religions?

Post by EquALLity »

I don't think so, because what is fraudulent is subjective. In the opinion of Christians, Judaism is fraudulent. In the opinion of Jewish people, Christianity is fraudulent. The government cannot regulate speech based on its validity, because people disagree about what is valid, which means that whoever is in power will determine what is classified as fraudulent. If the far right is in power, and they believe that religious opinions besides Christianity are fraudulent, then they will regulate those.

Also, many countries have laws that prevent regulation of religion. For example, the United States has separation of Church and State in the Constitution, which prevents the government from favoring or disfavoring religious beliefs. Regulating fraudulent religions would violate this. To change this, you would need to amend the Constitution, which is possible, but very difficult.

So, I disagree that religious speech should be regulated in that sense. However, I agree that religious people who try to cheat people out of money, such as televangelists, for a false promise, are doing something very unethical.
"I am not a Marxist." -Karl Marx
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