Questions About Race

General philosophy message board for Discussion and debate on other philosophical issues not directly related to veganism. Metaphysics, religion, theist vs. atheist debates, politics, general science discussion, etc.
User avatar
Red
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 3897
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:59 pm
Diet: Vegan
Location: To the Depths, in Degradation

Questions About Race

Post by Red »

I personally believe that race doesn't determine anything about your character, personality, or intelligence, and shouldn't be regarded at all, but I just want some clarification regarding a few things.
1. How come more blacks tend to have poorer education and less income than most white people? Is it because most have been oppressed throughout history, and they're still kinda dealing with the fallout?
2. If I point out race, can I still acknowledge that race doesn't really mean anything?
Learning never exhausts the mind.
-Leonardo da Vinci
knot
Master in Training
Posts: 538
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:34 pm

Re: Questions About Race

Post by knot »

'Race' is mostly a meaningless term since it's not a rigorously defined. The way it's used is most often as social construct. Got brown-ish skin? Okay, society deems you to be black.

So why do people in the USA who identify as/are considered black have poorer education, lower IQs, higher crime rates, etc. compared to the rest of the population? No one really knows for sure. This is a huge point of contention in America at the moment.

You got all kinds of theories as to why things are the way they are: History of slavery, lead paint, malnutrition, African DNA, thug culture (from the south), affirmative action's negative effect, and so on..
Gregor Samsa
Junior Member
Posts: 62
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:16 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: Questions About Race

Post by Gregor Samsa »

There may be some usefulness for race even though it's currently poorly defined, and I can't say for sure because I'm not a geneticist/other relevant field and I know my limits. I've talked to people in the relevant fields and I've gotten different answers depending of whom I've asked. I would prefer if turned out to be pretty much a useless term for genetics, but I don't really think much if anything follows ethically from race having some biological reality anyways. It's only if you believe in some form of ridiculously strong biological essentialism + determinism that race would be ethically valid as a basis for evaluating individuals. "weak race realism" does not justify discriminating individuals based on morally irrelevant (and fuzzy) group properties like race. It'd be like saying it's valid to discrminate against all Finnish people because they cluster somewhat differently in terms of haplogroups compared to Italians.

But as I said, I'd prefer a world with as little genetic difference between ethnic groups or "races" as possible, because otherwise some racist idiots will try to use that information to their advantage

Ok so after that little irrelevant rant, your questions:

1. I would think so yes. but my answer to this is a little different t han most. I try to combine the progressive viewpoint and the conservative, in that I think black americans in particular lack a lot of self-corrective mechanisms within their group such as taking personal responsibility(seeking internal solutions for internal problems. But where I differ from conservatives is that I think this is precisely the sort of outcome one could predict given the history of black americans. Ie I don't blame them at all, I think it's perfectly understandable, but I also think it's ultimately self-destructive, and I think progressives have to give up this bigotry of low expectations.

2. If you point out race you seem to point out that there's some information there to be gathered. So surely it must then mean something, even if it's from a social constructionist pov?
User avatar
Lay Vegan
Senior Member
Posts: 355
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:05 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: Questions About Race

Post by Lay Vegan »

The term "race" is far too loosely defined to be taken taken seriously as some scientific truth. Supposed "race realists" can't even reach a general consensus about what race is, and by which genetic traits we can consider people to be of various races.

When race-realists talk about race as a biological fact, they speak about it as though it were an identity achieved through socialization, which isn't how biological taxonomy works. Taxonomists recognize categorizations like "genus" and "species," and "kingdoms" as biological, based solely on shared physical traits. Traits such as the cell's possession of a nucleus, the ability to interbreed or to photosynthesize energy. This helpful in understanding how different life forms are interconnected.

Given the arbitrary of race (skin color, country of origin, hair texture) does it even have any taxonomic significance? Sure, it's helpful to social scientists, who study human psychology, but does it have any objective significance? Being herbivorous or omnivores certainly has significance to others. So does the ability to photosynthesize food for energy. NOT being black or white. I think race is nothing more than a social identity.


To my knowledge, there is still no solid consensus about this in the scientific community.

Red wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:11 pm 1. How come more blacks tend to have poorer education and less income than most white people? Is it because most have been oppressed throughout history, and they're still kinda dealing with the fallout?
There is probably an amalgam of different factors, each interconnected and related to each other in various ways. Could be social upbringing, lack of access to certain goods and services, genetic factors, family dynamics, different cultural aspirations etc.

Idk, perhaps consult a "soft scientist." They're the ones who study this. ;) ;) ;)
Red wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:11 pm 2. If I point out race, can I still acknowledge that race doesn't really mean anything?
Yeah. I mean scientifically speaking, race is meaningless. From a social standpoint, it can be a useful tool to help make sense of the human population. But it can also be a used a tool promote hatred and intolerance (and pseudoscience).
User avatar
Jebus
Master of the Forum
Posts: 2379
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:08 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: Questions About Race

Post by Jebus »

Some excellent replies so far.
Red wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:11 pm I personally believe that race doesn't determine anything about your character, personality, or intelligence, and shouldn't be regarded at all, but I just want some clarification regarding a few things.
I agree that it shouldn't be regarded at all, but I disagree about the first part, i.e. that race doesn't determine anything about your character, personality, or intelligence. Although significant statistical overlap, there are clearly differences in averages (even once family income is controlled for).
Red wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:11 pm2. If I point out race, can I still acknowledge that race doesn't really mean anything?
I don't understand this question.
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
User avatar
PsYcHo
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1166
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:24 pm
Diet: Pescetarian

Re: Questions About Race

Post by PsYcHo »

Red wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:11 pm 1. How come more blacks tend to have poorer education and less income than most white people? Is it because most have been oppressed throughout history, and they're still kinda dealing with the fallout?
Whatever research you did to bring you to this point, I'd suggest editing it to look into poverty rates among black persons with two parents at home versus single parents. There is a huge difference between single parent and dual parent groups.
Red wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:11 pm 2. If I point out race, can I still acknowledge that race doesn't really mean anything?
No.

You can either believe that race has a factor in behavior, or you can believe race has no factor in behavior.

If you believe race has no factor, then what is the point of mentioning the race of the persons you are describing?

If race doesn't mean anything, leave the race of the person out of it.
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
User avatar
Red
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 3897
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:59 pm
Diet: Vegan
Location: To the Depths, in Degradation

Re: Questions About Race

Post by Red »

I am so sorry for taking so long to respond.
By the way, I kinda misworded the second question. I meant to say that, for instance, I bring up statistics for race and the blacks are the ones with the highest poverty rates, is it hypocritical of me to say that it's not due to race?

@Knot
So do you think it can just be chocked up to coincidence? I'm willing to agree with that, if there isn't any strong evidence.

@Gregor Samsa
Responding to your answer to the second question, yes, and I will bring it up when I get to PsYcHo.

@Lay Vegan
Are you telling me that race isn't really a scientific thing (since I have to speak with a soft scientist)!?

@Jebus
Responding to the first answer, I'm just wondering why it just so happens that the blacks happen to be the ones with the higher poverty rates, as you'll see. I believe it's racist to attribute that to race.

@PsYcHo
That's actually a pretty damn good point. Other factors should be taken into account.
Here were my original statistics that I found:
https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/poverty-rate-by-raceethnicity/?currentTimeframe=0&selectedDistributions=black&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D
Here is a site that state the poverty rates after you told me about other factors:
http://www3.uakron.edu/schulze/401/readings/singleparfam.htm
We can discuss this if you want.

Thanks for the responses guys! Sorry if mine are half assed.
Learning never exhausts the mind.
-Leonardo da Vinci
User avatar
Jebus
Master of the Forum
Posts: 2379
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:08 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: Questions About Race

Post by Jebus »

Red wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:14 pmBy the way, I kinda misworded the second question. I meant to say that, for instance, I bring up statistics for race and the blacks are the ones with the highest poverty rates, is it hypocritical of me to say that it's not due to race?
It's only hypocritical if it's intentional. Otherwise, it would be either correct or incorrect.
Red wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:14 pmI'm just wondering why it just so happens that the blacks happen to be the ones with the higher poverty rates, as you'll see. I believe it's racist to attribute that to race.
If you are referring to the U.S. it is mostly due to a history of oppression and shitty opportunities. Lower intelligence is also a contributor but this may be mostly due to low education which is related to shitty opportunities.

If you are referring to Africa, this may answer your question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_Africa

Wikipedia doesn't mention low intelligence as a contributing factor as they probably want to avoid controversy. If this page is accurate, there is obviously correlation between intelligence and poverty (although causation is more complicated to determine). However, any page that claims Italians to be more intelligent than Swedes should be taken with a grain of salt. https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
User avatar
PsYcHo
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1166
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:24 pm
Diet: Pescetarian

Re: Questions About Race

Post by PsYcHo »

Red wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:14 pm
@PsYcHo
That's actually a pretty damn good point. Other factors should be taken into account.
Here were my original statistics that I found:
https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/poverty-rate-by-raceethnicity/?currentTimeframe=0&selectedDistributions=black&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D
Here is a site that state the poverty rates after you told me about other factors:
http://www3.uakron.edu/schulze/401/readings/singleparfam.htm
We can discuss this if you want.
It is an interesting divergence, but there is also a discussion to be had about the factors leading up to the acceptance of minority single parent families vs. more traditional (two parent) minority households. And does that divergence appear in all races worldwide, or is it more a socioeconomic situation, that appears among all minorities ( every race is in some part of the world a minority, so that is something to consider) ?

It may be worth starting another thread.
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
User avatar
Lay Vegan
Senior Member
Posts: 355
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:05 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: Questions About Race

Post by Lay Vegan »

Red wrote: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:14 pm @Lay Vegan
Are you telling me that race isn't really a scientific thing (since I have to speak with a soft scientist)!?
I was being a bit facetious. You asked why blacks have higher poverty rates than other Americans. I told you I think there is an amalgam of genetic and societal factors at play. I pointed out that social scientists study this kind of stuff.

I'm not sure where I stand on race. I don't have enough expertise to declare with certainty that race is or is not a biological fact. And the scientific community seems to be at an impasse on this.

If anyone knows any geneticists or biologists who thinks either way, feel free to link me.
Post Reply