Is the "Zwarte Piet" Tradition Racist?

General philosophy message board for Discussion and debate on other philosophical issues not directly related to veganism. Metaphysics, religion, theist vs. atheist debates, politics, general science discussion, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
Lightningman_42
Master in Training
Posts: 501
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:19 am
Diet: Vegan
Location: California

Is the "Zwarte Piet" Tradition Racist?

Post by Lightningman_42 »

I recently read this National Geographic article on the "Black Piet" tradition associated with Saint Nicholas Day in the Netherlands:

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/12/black-pete-christmas-zwarte-piet-dutch/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Social&utm_content=link_fb20171202news-blackpete&utm_campaign=Content&sf175069382=1

Is this tradition racist against dark-skinned Netherlanders? Should it be banned? Does allowing this tradition to continue fuel anti-black racism, and harm dark-skinned people?


Some things to keep in mind:

-Black Piet is not a character associated with Christmas. Saint Nicholas Day is Dec. 6. It is not on Dec. 25. The "Black Piet" character is one of the following:
-A black man; a paid servant of Saint Nicholas (in gratitude to him for being freed from slavery). He delivers presents on behalf of Saint Nicholas / Sinterklaas.
-A white man; a servant who slides down chimneys, blackening his face in the process, in order to deliver presents.
-Either way, Black Piet is not a slave.

-A lot of people are rightly outraged by the historical racism of "black-face" comedy that used to be practiced in the U.S.A. The black-face involved in this Netherlandish tradition has a different history.

-Some portion of these outraged people are virtue-signaling white Americans. How much should we care about them feeling offended?
How much should we care about actual dark-skinned Netherlanders who are offended by this tradition? How common is it for them to be offended by this? Are there any statistics describing how many dark-skinned Netherlanders are offended by Black Piets?
"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil but because of those who look on and do nothing."
-Albert Einstein
User avatar
PsYcHo
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1166
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:24 pm
Diet: Pescetarian

Re: Is the "Zwarte Piet" Tradition Racist?

Post by PsYcHo »

I remember learning about this from a mixed race comedian who married a white man from the Netherlands, and she went to visit his family.

I can see how, even if not intended to be, it can be interpreted as racist. I don't live in the area, so I think it's up to those who do to decide whether or not the tradition should be changed.

I also see how those who hold it as a tradition could be upset when they are not racists.

There is a meme that's been around for a while, with a black man (adorned with many confederate flags) holding a sign along the lines of "Heritage, not hate" while a white man holds a sign reading "Black Lives Matter." This is a real picture, and I used to live about five miles from where it was taken.

In parts of the deep south, the confederate flag is just a symbol (for many) of being southern. Grits, mudding, hunting, whiskey, racing, chewing tobacco and laughing at northerners who are always upset and in a hurry...y'all. I've never worn any article of clothing or owned a confederate flag myself, because I knew many saw it as racist. (I also was taught at around age 5, that the flag means you don't like black people. By my family members who were wearing it.... :x ) But I had black friends who did wear confederate flag clothing. (Not the majority by any means, but more than one or two.)

For me it was a personal choice not to "fly" the rebel flag. I knew it could and did offend people, and if you have to take time to explain why something isn't offensive, then it seems likely to me that it is offensive to many. And I have no problem offending people, but I prefer to only offend people intentionally (Trump sucks, and so did Obama) than unintentionally.
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
User avatar
Jebus
Master of the Forum
Posts: 2379
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:08 pm
Diet: Vegan

Re: Is the "Zwarte Piet" Tradition Racist?

Post by Jebus »

This is an example of how SJWs have turned something non controversial into an issue. Black Piet has now become a symbol of racism that probably does cause distress to some overly sensitive black people. My guess is that the tradition will soon be dropped.

The historical context always needs to be considered before getting butt hurt about things like this. No one was offended by the "Negro King" in the Pippi Longstocking books before some white person who wanted extra points said that the books were racist and would have to be changed.
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
User avatar
PsYcHo
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1166
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:24 pm
Diet: Pescetarian

Re: Is the "Zwarte Piet" Tradition Racist?

Post by PsYcHo »

Historical context does matter, and I'm only familiar with it from and American perspective, and a limited one at that.

IF Black Piet wasn't in fact Santa's slave (as I had understood it), then it shouldn't be a problem.

Having researched it a bit more, it does seem like a harmless tradition, that some people are trying to make racist.
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
User avatar
miniboes
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1578
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:52 pm
Diet: Vegan
Location: Netherlands

Re: Is the "Zwarte Piet" Tradition Racist?

Post by miniboes »

As the only (remotely active) dutch person on this forum I feel obliged to respond to this, but I hate the subject (it's boring) so i'm gonna keep it short.

No, this is not an example of SJW's going too far. It is not an inherently racist tradition, but the skin color and clothing of the zwarte piet is unnecessarily offensive to black people. There is not a single good reason not to change it, and the only argument people can come up with is a simple appeal to tradition fallacy.

The one's making this a big controversial issue are the ones who resist change for the sake of not budging to people that are not in their tribe, their preferred group in society. Screw that, it's just a children's holiday. Change it up if it offends people, the children won't care. If you think Black Pete having black skin is an integral part to the joy of Sinterklaas, that's what I would call racist. The joy of Sinterklaas is having a good excuse to come together with those you love and do something nice for one another.
"I advocate infinite effort on behalf of very finite goals, for example correcting this guy's grammar."
- David Frum
User avatar
PsYcHo
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1166
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:24 pm
Diet: Pescetarian

Re: Is the "Zwarte Piet" Tradition Racist?

Post by PsYcHo »

miniboes wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:09 am As the only (remotely active) dutch person on this forum I feel obliged to respond to this.

No, this is not an example of SJW's going too far. It is not an inherently racist tradition, but the skin color and clothing of the zwarte piet is unnecessarily offensive to black people.
Until I hear from another Dutch person with an opinion on the subject, I'll take Miniboes opinion as the most likely correct one.

I'm curious Miniboes, what do you think is the best way to deal with the zwarte piet tradition?
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
User avatar
miniboes
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1578
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:52 pm
Diet: Vegan
Location: Netherlands

Re: Is the "Zwarte Piet" Tradition Racist?

Post by miniboes »

The best option in my opinion happens to be the most common proposal among people that are against the traditional black pete. Basically, the most common defense of the black Pete being black is that they come through the chimney, so they got soot all over them. Of course, soot is not brown and it wouldn't cover your whole body. So, what most people advocate is having black Pete be a regular person covered in soot (or makeup that imitates it). I support that option: it's completely in line with the sinterklaas "lore" without being offensive to black people.

Here's the 'soot pete' compared to the traditional black pete:
Image
"I advocate infinite effort on behalf of very finite goals, for example correcting this guy's grammar."
- David Frum
User avatar
PsYcHo
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1166
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:24 pm
Diet: Pescetarian

Re: Is the "Zwarte Piet" Tradition Racist?

Post by PsYcHo »

miniboes wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:12 pm Here's the 'soot pete' compared to the traditional black pete:
Yeah, that seems much less offensive and keeps to the tradition.
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
RoseKnows
Newbie
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:57 am
Diet: Vegan

Re: Is the "Zwarte Piet" Tradition Racist?

Post by RoseKnows »

miniboes wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:09 am As the only (remotely active) dutch person on this forum I feel obliged to respond to this, but I hate the subject (it's boring) so i'm gonna keep it short.

No, this is not an example of SJW's going too far. It is not an inherently racist tradition, but the skin color and clothing of the zwarte piet is unnecessarily offensive to black people. There is not a single good reason not to change it, and the only argument people can come up with is a simple appeal to tradition fallacy.

The one's making this a big controversial issue are the ones who resist change for the sake of not budging to people that are not in their tribe, their preferred group in society. Screw that, it's just a children's holiday. Change it up if it offends people, the children won't care. If you think Black Pete having black skin is an integral part to the joy of Sinterklaas, that's what I would call racist. The joy of Sinterklaas is having a good excuse to come together with those you love and do something nice for one another.
The clothing is a Spanish court costume, because Zwarte Piet is supposed to be a Spanish Moor. I'm not seeing how the costume is offensive, because it's just a fanciful version of a historical costume that fits the character, but if you have a suggestion for that I'm interested. Still, the (Roet) Zwarte Piet seem to be a good compromise to me, and I agree that ultimately it's about the spirit of the holiday and that one little change keeps the intent of the tradition while easing the uncomfortable connotations.
User avatar
miniboes
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1578
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:52 pm
Diet: Vegan
Location: Netherlands

Re: Is the "Zwarte Piet" Tradition Racist?

Post by miniboes »

RoseKnows wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:36 pmThe clothing is a Spanish court costume, because Zwarte Piet is supposed to be a Spanish Moor. I'm not seeing how the costume is offensive, because it's just a fanciful version of a historical costume that fits the character, but if you have a suggestion for that I'm interested. Still, the (Roet) Zwarte Piet seem to be a good compromise to me, and I agree that ultimately it's about the spirit of the holiday and that one little change keeps the intent of the tradition while easing the uncomfortable connotations.
Ah, seems I confused two facts in my head. It's not that the current costume is that of a servant, but that some of the first illustrations of black pete had them in servant's clothes. The skin color and make-up are the main points of protest for me either way, I don't really care about the clothes.

Also: welcome to the forum!
"I advocate infinite effort on behalf of very finite goals, for example correcting this guy's grammar."
- David Frum
Post Reply