Do you believe in self-ownership?

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NonZeroSum
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Re: Do you believe in self-ownership?

Post by NonZeroSum »

No, not when the ideas being presented are completely side-stepped with irrelevant justifications and blatant ad hominem dismissals. . .
It's not an ad hominum to determine the authority of a source based on how willing they are to accept scientific consensus!
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AMP3083
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Re: Do you believe in self-ownership?

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NonZeroSum wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:40 am Larken Rose doesn't believe in evolution.
Mark Passio is a run of the mill conspiracy nut who promotes David Icke.
Mike Rasila fear mongers vaccines, encourages driving and doing electrics without passing any tests.

These aren't rational people, I can listen to them and understand the appeal of their ideology, but they're never going to make change happen or convince the masses. If you on your channel get people thinking about veganism and how to not let bosses get them down great, but I don't see a movement for social and political change from the ancap side, I just see conspiracy nuts and rhetoric.
Larken and Mark are not rational people? Your opinion. I would credit mostly Larken for the increase of anarchists (if we can even call that a "movement"), as there are more of them today than there was 10 years ago. To say that he's not a rational person is lazily dismissing tons and years of work he's put into this. I don't give a fuck if someone doesn't believe in gravity or that the earth is flat. But, if he has something to say about government, I'll hear him out and try to have a civil conversation on that topic alone, instead of dismissing him cuz he doesn't believe in gravity.

And I don't care about Rasila in general, I briefly mentioned him as an example. I don't know what Larken's actual position is on evolution, I'm more interested in his ideas about voluntaryism and anarchy. Conspiracy nut? Ok, what does any of this have to do with government and self-ownership?

You're trying to pull the same stunt on me like you did with Brian by appealing to absurd ad hominems. I was hoping you were enlightened after he put you in your place.
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AMP3083
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Re: Do you believe in self-ownership?

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NonZeroSum wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:55 amI'm saying you're an idiot for not taking an hour out of your day when there are millions of non-anarchists lining up to vote for something worse among the options which could do with countering.
We don't vote. Period. We advocate not voting. I thought our position as anarchists were abundantly clear? Sitting on our ass not doing anything is a lot better than voting for a nicer slave master. No Masters. No Slaves. It's all a damn puppet show, even the person you're voting for is a puppet.

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NonZeroSum
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Re: Do you believe in self-ownership?

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AMP3083 wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:49 pm I thought our position as anarchists were abundantly clear?
Pick up a history book or read my damn posts before you respond:
NonZeroSum wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:32 pm In France 9% just went to the polls and spoilt their ballot after saying they would in polling Melanchon conducted, which reached major news and is great movement solidarity.
. . .
In 1936 Spain, the CNT an anarchist union encouraged it's members to vote for the left alliance because it would free political prisoners. It had the allegiance of many peasant farmers who would usually abstain from party politics.
The funny thing is, I'm well served by you not understanding the points I'm making because if you did come round to the blatent knowledge that who you vote for often has dramatic real world effects you'd vote for someone like Bush again because you have a dog eat dog capitalist monopoly theory of value instead of a labor one, so happy sleeping, don't let the bed bugs bite.
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Re: Do you believe in self-ownership?

Post by BrianBlackwell »

AMP3083 wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:49 pm Sitting on our ass not doing anything is a lot better than voting for a nicer slave master.
Hey AMP. In my thread on BGG, I got a response that demonstrated -- in the clearest possible terms -- the indoctrinated mentality. I mimicked what Larken did in that one video by replacing a few key words to reveal the underlying perspective:

Original post:

"You look at our government and bemoan that its will is forced upon you. I look at our government and am thankful that it isn't as oppressive and domineering as the vast majority of alternatives. Be thankful that those who do hold the power over you in this case aren't nearly as bad as they could possibly be. You should just accept the fact that those who hold the power will always be able to force their will upon you. We've been given a pretty good deal in the grand scheme of things."


My reply:

I will grant you this point as a matter of practicality (while cringing and gritting my teeth), but surely you realize that a sentiment more in accord with the slave mentality has never been uttered. Here, I'll prove it:

"You look at our master and bemoan that his will is forced upon you. I look at our master and am thankful that he isn't as oppressive and domineering as the vast majority of alternatives. Be thankful that he who does hold the power over you in this case isn't nearly as bad as he could possibly be. You should just accept the fact that masters will always be able to force their will upon you. We've been given a pretty good deal in the grand scheme of things."

Only the words in bold have been changed. Wow. I mean... just wow. I swear to God I didn't make this shit up.
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Re: Do you believe in self-ownership?

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Looks like 2015 Brian was a lot more cogent:
Brian wrote:
Is it your argument that voluntary transactions and negotiations and competition among companies could not answer those questions?

Amazon is trying to get drones to deliver all your packages straight to your door and in certain areas already has same day delivery service in major city areas and you are wondering how private companies could hope to serve every individual without taxation?
You chide others for sloppy arguments and then invoke the ability of voluntary transactions to meet individual needs as an answer to a problem involving free rider/public good challenges?
Brian wrote:
The question presumes things such as how much of the public good should be provided. My answer is voluntary transactions determine that. And it does it more efficiently and without violating property.
OK, but other than just defining "whatever voluntary transactions leads to" as the correct public good then it's not much of an answer. I know a lot of libertarians have written about voluntary transactions solving externalities and free rider issues but I've yet to see a "solution" that didn't involve hand-waving at some point. Government certainly has its inefficiencies, but my local government seems to do a very good job of clearing snow from roads, collecting trash & recycling, etc. I'm doubtful we could get it done cheaper even if everyone coordinated and negotiated a purely-voluntary solution and I'm very doubtful that such an effort wouldn't run into people who didn't want to pay and leveraged the fact that there's no obvious way not to let someone who doesn't chip in capture the benefits of plowing.[/quot pay for their services.
Brian wrote:
Was it not the government that enacted Jim Crow Laws? Was it not the government that outlawed sodomy? Protected slavery? Put people in jail for possession of Marijuana? Was it not a government clerk who single handedly halted the issuance of marriage licenses to same sex couples in Kentucky? How could all that be possible without monopolistic control of the market?
If we get to evaluate things by singling out the bad then everything is bad.
Brian wrote:
It think my assessment is fair in light of the context that many people offer proof of government opening access (gay marriage, for instance) when all it really did was merely remove barriers that it had previously erected.
I think that's a very generous (to your perspective) reading on things. Slavery, i.e. the forceful capture and use of other people, has existed since tribal times. Yes, States legalized it but they didn't erect that barrier.

You can look at almost anything government does and claim that it was only necessary because of that or some other government because everyone lives in a State of some sort. That doesn't mean that it's invalid to point out that in stateless conditions people with little power or wealth can be entirely at the mercy of those with more power and wealth, whereas the State can (and in many cases does) provide protection.

Of course, modern libertarians want people to have those protections but their methods for offering them are entirely theoretical and depend, IMO at least, on an absurd optimism that for-profit entities will invest resources in protecting people who are unable to pay for their services
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Re: Do you believe in self-ownership?

Post by AMP3083 »

BrianBlackwell wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:54 pm
AMP3083 wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:49 pm Sitting on our ass not doing anything is a lot better than voting for a nicer slave master.
Hey AMP. In my thread on BGG, I got a response that demonstrated -- in the clearest possible terms -- the indoctrinated mentality. I mimicked what Larken did in that one video by replacing a few key words to reveal the underlying perspective:

Original post:

"You look at our government and bemoan that its will is forced upon you. I look at our government and am thankful that it isn't as oppressive and domineering as the vast majority of alternatives. Be thankful that those who do hold the power over you in this case aren't nearly as bad as they could possibly be. You should just accept the fact that those who hold the power will always be able to force their will upon you. We've been given a pretty good deal in the grand scheme of things."


My reply:

I will grant you this point as a matter of practicality (while cringing and gritting my teeth), but surely you realize that a sentiment more in accord with the slave mentality has never been uttered. Here, I'll prove it:

"You look at our master and bemoan that his will is forced upon you. I look at our master and am thankful that he isn't as oppressive and domineering as the vast majority of alternatives. Be thankful that he who does hold the power over you in this case isn't nearly as bad as he could possibly be. You should just accept the fact that masters will always be able to force their will upon you. We've been given a pretty good deal in the grand scheme of things."

Only the words in bold have been changed. Wow. I mean... just wow. I swear to God I didn't make this shit up.
Nicely done. 8-) I certainly hope that got the point across. When they're that deep into the matrix they refuse to be unplugged.
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Re: Do you believe in self-ownership?

Post by BrianBlackwell »

NonZeroSum wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:41 pm Looks like 2015 Brian was a lot more cogent:
Who are you talking about? Both our names are Brian. I don't recognize any of that as my words.
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Re: Do you believe in self-ownership?

Post by NonZeroSum »

BrianBlackwell wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:25 am
NonZeroSum wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:41 pm Looks like 2015 Brian was a lot more cogent:
Who are you talking about? Both our names are Brian. I don't recognize any of that as my words.
No worries, was overly optimistic of you having a fall from grace, as in you holding some rationality in the first place.
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Re: Do you believe in self-ownership?

Post by BrianBlackwell »

NonZeroSum wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:41 am
BrianBlackwell wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:25 am
NonZeroSum wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:41 pm Looks like 2015 Brian was a lot more cogent:
Who are you talking about? Both our names are Brian. I don't recognize any of that as my words.
No worries, was overly optimistic of you having a fall from grace, as in you holding some rationality in the first place.
Is that your way of saying you made a mistake?
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