#namethetrait argument

[Vegan for animals]

//Me: Morality is subjective but logic is objective, if you are logically consistent and hold a stance that moral devaluation requires justification and believes that there should not be any rights then you are nihilist or you believe that only humans should have right to live and not animals then you are logically inconsistent in your position because there is no trait absent in animals which if absent in humans would require needless death of humans. We would not accept subjecting ourselves to exploitation because of lack of that trait.
Non vegan: Morality is subjective but logic is objective. And yet, like any relationship, the subject influences the object, if the very basis of the object is to somehow justify the subject. Therefore, logical reasoning has its limits in philosophical reasoning because it is prone to fall within the subjectivity of an individual's negotiations with reality.

And about #namethattrait thing, I feel that the main difference between humans and non human animals are two fold: collective learning and the ability to be self-perception, self-aware and self-identify as an unique individual distinct from other unique individuals within the same species.

And collective learning has two aspects as well: the accumulation of knowledge over generations and the tinkering with the existing knowledge to create innovative changes that leads to progress. And such innovations are often in response to the material needs of the entire collective.//

I can think Chickens have every self awareness, self identity and all, many scientific research papers have proof of their ability to learn.
Need your take on it.

[NonZeroSum]

Morality is subjective but logic is objective, if you are logically consistent and hold a stance that moral devaluation requires justification and believes that there should not be any rights then you are nihilist or you believe that only humans should have right to live and not animals then you are logically inconsistent in your position because there is no trait absent in animals which if absent in humans would require needless death of humans. We would not accept subjecting ourselves to exploitation because of lack of that trait.

Morality is subjective but logic is objective. And yet, like any relationship, the subject influences the object, if the very basis of the object is to somehow justify the subject. Therefore, logical reasoning has its limits in philosophical reasoning because it is prone to fall within the subjectivity of an individual's negotiations with reality.

And about #namethattrait thing, I feel that the main difference between humans and non human animals are two fold: collective learning and the ability to be self-perception, self-aware and self-identify as an unique individual distinct from other unique individuals within the same species.

And collective learning has two aspects as well: the accumulation of knowledge over generations and the tinkering with the existing knowledge to create innovative changes that leads to progress. And such innovations are often in response to the material needs of the entire collective.

I can think Chickens have every self awareness, self identity and all, many scientific research papers have proof of their ability to learn.

Need your take on it.

Heya Vegan for animals, you might find the quote button useful, just highlight the first part of the conversation, click the quote symbol tool ", then highlight all the first and second, click quote button, then highlight the first, second and third, click quote button. Then you can even put the name of the person your quoting in by putting an equals sign next to quote [quote = non vegan] with no spaces between the equals sign quote=non vegan.

As to your friend, the argument goes you're always going to find an individual human that displays less of any trait you can think of than a farm animal, if we can show sympathy for that person and not want it to suffer we should also extend that to other animals, dogs, pigs, etc. You just have to get them to recognise that they care about suffering. But the going vegan for your health, the environment or other humans is just as good, we just need to set principles for ourselves in order to stick by those ambitions, vegan isn't the moral baseline, but it's the easiest change we can make, to avoid putting things in our mouths we know are animal products.