Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

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Greatest I am
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Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

Post by Greatest I am »

Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

Statistics show that the average U.S. citizen pays considerably more for their, --- bankruptcy creating inhumane medical system, --- than other countries who have nationalized health care. The gain in GDP is around 3%.

It follows economies of scale gains are likely to be about 3%. If a penny saved is a penny earned, I am justified in saying that there would be a 6% saving to the average U.S. citizen.

Why are Americans wasting such a huge amount of gains, when going single payer could bring such a huge gain to each American?

I ask all my Yankee friends; what the hell? Recognize that single payer, pays great dividends.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/health-costs-how-the-us-compares-with-other-countries/

Regards
DL
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PsYcHo
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Re: Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

Post by PsYcHo »

I'm pretty much for as little government as possible, (I have no problem with a person being able to go into a store and buying Heroin and rounds for your AR-15, and milk.), but in this case, I actually agree with you.

Since we are already being taxed (against our will, I might add), maybe instead of spending countless billions on fighting wars in other countries that will (inevitably, if history is to repeat itself for the hundredth or so time) turn on us as soon as the balance of power falls to them, maybe we could subsidize a practice that keeps people alive.

Silly notion, I know. Stop killing so many damn people who don't affect our 'Murican lives, and invest in keeping people alive without financially ruining them.

But of course this would mean allowing the Federal Guvment to take charge of this, so........ it will cost 900% more than it actually should. (Cuz regulations makes us safer! And we need an oversight committee to oversee the committee for oversight that is oversaw by the committee for overall oversightin')
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
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Re: Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Ah, you have to follow the money. Just nationalizing health care won't solve the problem, it will still be extremely expensive.

Insurance companies are not the leeches people think they are; they have a very narrow profit margin.
Most of the cost insurance companies charge is based on the cost of health care: doctors and hospitals.

There are some serious abuses occurring on the hospital level, like charging for things they didn't do, and overcharging for a box of tissues.. or, you know, charging you to let you hold your baby:

http://www.healthline.com/health-news/ridiculous-hospital-charges
There are a lot of articles on this if you look for them. It's not clear how common this nonsense is, but I've heard plenty of anecdotes and seen enough bills myself for ridiculous services.

Accountability and overcharging have to be reigned in somehow if spending is going to be reduced. Price transparency would help with that, and the only way we'll likely get it is government intervention.

But that's only part of the problem. There's a much bigger issue at hand.

There aren't enough doctors. Or nurses.
This causes two problems which influence spending:
1. Due to supply and demand, doctors are also paid MUCH too much (once they pay back their student loads, that is; a doctor fresh out of residency is not rich by any means due to crushing debt). You can hardly fault them for working for the highest bidder, particularly as med school costs kind of price set here.
2. Doctors are overworked, see too many patients, and don't get enough sleep.

The first influences your medical bill directly, and the second might kill you, and influences it indirectly. Being overworked is why so many people get hurt or killed in hospitals when doctors don't get sleep, and it's why (along with the U.S. litigious culture and a few blood sucking lawyers) liability insurance is so expensive.

When doctors and hospitals have to pay an arm and a leg for liability insurance, they pass that onto the consumer.
You have to pay more because a doctor screwed up because he or she was overworked and killed somebody and the family sued and the liability insurance company had to pay out millions of dollars which meant the hospital had to pay huge premiums which all had to be accounted for in the price of the service.

Yeah, lawyers are a big part of it. But it's not even all their fault. Doctors need to stop being overworked, but in order to do that we need more of them and finally I come to the last ingredient of high healthcare costs:

Inflated tuition prices (which I hinted at) for a medical degree (and the limited number of schools providing them).
Not only do student loans and just making back the investment mean doctors HAVE to charge more for their services right into the industry, but the barrier to entry (and limited spots) also reduces supply of doctors and nurses, meaning both that they CAN charge more, but also that they have to be overworked which meas they make more mistakes which means higher liability insurance forcing them to charge even more etc...

It pretty much all tracks back to education and the cultural failing to turn out more healthcare workers affordably so there's more competition and more people to do the work so they can see fewer patients and just do a better job all around.

You want to fix the healthcare issue?
Establish free government run medical schools, and maybe throw in a bit of tort reform while you're at it to cut down on frivolous lawsuits. Those are still a big issue. Something bad happens, and even if it wasn't the doctor's fault families often look for somebody to blame (and sue). That has to be changed because the only ones getting rich off that practice are the lawyers (not that all lawyers are bad, but there are some leeches out there).

Nationalize or don't nationalize. Single payer would be more convenient in some ways (and I support a public option for that reason), but it won't solve the problem (it will be a modest improvement). We need to look to the root of the issue.
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Re: Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

Post by Jebus »

That, or: remove subsidies on meat and dairy subsidies that will free up an estimated 38 billion USD. Less people will eat meat and dairy once it costs what it should cost. As a result fewer people will get sick and fewer doctors will be needed.
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
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2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
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Re: Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

Post by PsYcHo »

brimstoneSalad wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:49 am Nationalize or don't nationalize. Single payer would be more convenient in some ways (and I support a public option for that reason), but it won't solve the problem (it will be a modest improvement). We need to look to the root of the issue.
This is an excellent point.

I have a relative who works in the medical field. She assists doctors who have been on the job for half as many years as she has. She knows just as much as they do. But she isn't qualified to to the job since she only went to school for four years, and they went for six. (Plus, they spent a lot more money to be certified in their field)

Of course the actual doctors make much more, but they can be sued for any number of reasons. The amount of money to pay for education in the medical fields is ridiculous. I myself would have considered it a career path, but there was no way for me to finance the education.(In addition, I had a few misdemeanor charges which ensured the government wouldn't pay for me to learn to help people..)

I'm for a very, very, very limited government, but if the one we had paid for my school, ensured I had a livable home and food (and a small stipend for entertainment) I would have gladly gone into the medical field. I don't need a yacht, just a roof, a full stomach, and a few dozen books and video games, and the satisfaction of helping my fellow humans.

And I assume their are many more individuals who would gladly learn how to help others in the field, if only it were less complicated and costly.
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
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Re: Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

Post by PsYcHo »

Jebus wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:43 am That, or: remove subsidies on meat and dairy subsidies that will free up an estimated 38 billion USD. Less people will eat meat and dairy once it costs what it should cost. As a result fewer people will get sick and fewer doctors will be needed.
I understand your concerns about the meat and dairy industries, but arguing a position about national health care that affects humans (some of who may survive to bring about changes to animal welfare, if given the chance) against an estimated cost of subsidies (which is a fluid medium) doesn't seem like an argument that would sway the average uninformed person. (I know I can be an ass, but I'm really not trying to be here. I'm just considering the greater good. :) )
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
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Jebus
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Re: Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

Post by Jebus »

PsYcHo wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:09 amI understand your concerns about the meat and dairy industries, but arguing a position about national health care that affects humans (some of who may survive to bring about changes to animal welfare, if given the chance) against an estimated cost of subsidies (which is a fluid medium) doesn't seem like an argument that would sway the average uninformed person. (I know I can be an ass, but I'm really not trying to be here. I'm just considering the greater good. :) )
I just read that three times and still have no idea what you are getting at.
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
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Re: Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

Post by PsYcHo »

Jebus wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:13 am I just read that three times and still have no idea what you are getting at.
I think your argument about removing subsidies from the meat and dairy industries isn't practical when considering nationalizing health care in America.

The problems with the American health care system are legion, and I don't discount that meat and dairy consumption plays a role in negative health factors, but even if meat and dairy were to be outright banned for consumption, there are many issues in the institution that would continue to be problematic. Congenital heart defects, for instance, are an issue that persons are born with. Not being able to buy cheap meat/dairy would do nothing to help someone suffering from this.

If meat and dairy were sold at their actual cost, less people would consume them, but that would do nothing for those who are born with a disease that isn't a direct effect from eating meat. It would also not help anyone who contracts a disease that isn't directly related to meat/dairy consumption.
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
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Re: Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

Post by Jebus »

PsYcHo wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:39 amI think your argument about removing subsidies from the meat and dairy industries isn't practical when considering nationalizing health care in America.

The problems with the American health care system are legion, and I don't discount that meat and dairy consumption plays a role in negative health factors, but even if meat and dairy were to be outright banned for consumption, there are many issues in the institution that would continue to be problematic. Congenital heart defects, for instance, are an issue that persons are born with. Not being able to buy cheap meat/dairy would do nothing to help someone suffering from this.

If meat and dairy were sold at their actual cost, less people would consume them, but that would do nothing for those who are born with a disease that isn't a direct effect from eating meat. It would also not help anyone who contracts a disease that isn't directly related to meat/dairy consumption.
I am still confused as your position, as I interpret it, makes no sense. The above reads as if you think it would be better for the government to continue to subsidise meat and dairy because there are some illnesses that have nothing to do with meat and dairy consumption.
How to become vegan in 4.5 hours:
1.Watch Forks over Knives (Health)
2.Watch Cowspiracy (Environment)
3. Watch Earthlings (Ethics)
Congratulations, unless you are a complete idiot you are now a vegan.
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Re: Why are U.S. citizens ignoring the 6% gain on GDP, by not nationalizing health care?

Post by PsYcHo »

Jebus wrote: Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:44 am I am still confused as your position, as I interpret it, makes no sense.
I'm (obviously) not a very experienced debater, but as I see it, your position is that if we only stop the subsidies to the meat and dairy industries, that would provide enough funds to (both through less money going towards the subsidies, and the reduced need for treatment brought on by ilnesses caused by meat/dairy consumption) make single-payer healthcare viable.

While I agree the subsidies should be removed (not just for ethical reasons, but politically fiscal ones as well), I don't think that would solve the healthcare budgetary issues.
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.
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