Storage solutions for 100% renewable scenario's: hydrogen, ammonium and iron batteries?

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miniboes
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Storage solutions for 100% renewable scenario's: hydrogen, ammonium and iron batteries?

Post by miniboes »

For 0 carbon energy, we don't have very many options. Thermal is only usable in some locations, same for hydro. On top of that, hydro has bonus environmental concerns; it may account for a large portion of our methane emissions and hurts biodiversity. Biomass is in my opinion terrible since it competes for resources and land with our food supply. I'd rather use corn to feed people a bit more so they can cycle to work and save gasoline than burn it. CCS is not ready yet.

What remains is solar, wind and nuclear. Environmentalists tend to oppose nuclear (with the exception of Finnish greens) and thus are left with the first two. The thing is, large scale wind and solar are completely unproven. There are two countries that have scaled up clean (CO2 free) energy to meet all of their energy demand in a way that can be applied most other situations; Sweden and France. Both did it with nuclear. Given the severity of the issue of climate change, environmentalists take up a huge burden of proof when they state that renewables can meet all our energy needs.

So far, they haven't proven it. A meta-review [1] of modelled 100% renewable scenarios find that none of them meet a set of basic criteria for reliable energy systems. Another meta-review [2] finds that scenarios without 'dispatchable baseload' such as nuclear and CCS would be much more expensive even if they were feasible. The cheapest scenarios get 40-70% of their energy from nuclear.

There's a basic reason to doubt 100% renewable energy scenario's are infeasible; the intermittency of solar and wind. There will inevitably be days, weeks and even seasons where renewables produce less than required or nearly nothing at all. Unlike the amount of coal, gas or uranium we feed into a power plant, we don't control the sun and wind. There are also periods where renewables produce more than the grid can handle, leading to instability if it isn't used up somehow. Thus, large scale storage is needed. Pumped storage and lithium-ion batteries are not up to the job. Asides from both being extremely expensive, lithium may be in short supply soon and pumped storage has the same environmental concerns as hydroelectricity.

For these reasons the IPCC, IEA and PBL (dutch environmental agency) have all stressed the importance of nuclear in dealing with climate change.

It seems like environmentalists have one last hope; creating fuel with excess renewable energy. Ammonia and hydrogen have been proposed to me as a solution. Besides that, there's the possibility of batteries made out of common minerals like iron rather than lithium. Although the burden of proof is not upon me, I'll be investigating these possibilities in the upcoming month. The basic questions I'll seek to answer are:
  • are these options scalable?
  • are these options affordable? (read: will climate skeptics take power if this is attempted? (read: what does this do to middle- and lower class energy bills?))
  • is there a single modelled scenario or empirical case of these sources providing energy on a large scale?
  • do these options have non-CO2 environmental concerns like methane or air pollution?
  • are these options safe? (compared to nuclear, gas)
I can't help but feel like whenever I'm dealing with these energy issues I'm treading a bit too far from my area of expertise. But it's too important not to. If you have any sources that may be useful or insights on why these storage solutions could work or not work, please leave them below. I'll leave anything I find there too.

I'll probably make a post about the ecological impacts of the accidents in Fukushima, Three Mile Island and Chernobyl accidents soon.

[1] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364032117304495
[2] http://innovationreform.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/EIRP-Deep-Decarb-Lit-Review-Jenkins-Thernstrom-March-2017.pdf
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Re: Feasibility and cost of 100% renewable energy scenario's

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miniboes wrote:I'll probably make a post about the ecological impacts of the accidents in Fukushima, Three Mile Island and Chernobyl accidents soon.
Very interesting thread. Could you suggest me any good article/video that goes into more depth on the pros and cons of nuclear?
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Re: Feasibility and cost of 100% renewable energy scenario's

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DarlBundren wrote: Fri May 05, 2017 8:18 am
miniboes wrote:I'll probably make a post about the ecological impacts of the accidents in Fukushima, Three Mile Island and Chernobyl accidents soon.
Very interesting thread. Could you suggest me any good article/video that goes into more depth on the pros and cons of nuclear?
Honestly I should probably write it up myself, since all that I've learned is very scattered. However, there are a few good resources I can recommend: Beyond that, it kinda depends how deep into the weeds you wanna get. I can recommend some blog posts and scholarly articles I've read (two of them are mentioned above) but those are not very accessible.

It's weird, but I feel like pronuclear people are the only ones who talk honestly and factually about the cons of nuclear. Antinuclear people often adress 'cons' that truly aren't a big deal, like nuclear waste, fictional costs and construction times, proliferation risk etc. Not to say these are non-issues, but anti-nuclear people exaggerate them a lot and ignore the problems of renewables.

If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask. I may not have studied anything even related to sustainable energy but by now I've read so much random content on it I know what I'm talking about pretty well.
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Re: Storage solutions for 100% renewable scenario's: hydrogen, ammonium and iron batteries?

Post by DarlBundren »

miniboes wrote:Pandora's Promise (documentary), it's on netflix and youtube.
Michael Shellenberger's TED talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZXUR4z2P9w
Thanks. I have already read some articles on the topic, but my knowledge is still rudimentary.
miniboes wrote:Antinuclear people often adress 'cons' that truly aren't a big deal, like nuclear waste, fictional costs and construction times, proliferation risk etc.
I think a lot of people are simply scared because of Chernobyl and Fukushima. You live in the Netherlands, I'm sure you've heard your share of horror stories regarding Chernobyl too.
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Re: Storage solutions for 100% renewable scenario's: hydrogen, ammonium and iron batteries?

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DarlBundren wrote: Fri May 05, 2017 1:15 pmI think a lot of people are simply scared because of Chernobyl and Fukushima. You live in the Netherlands, I'm sure you've heard your share of horror stories regarding Chernobyl too.
I have. To give a quick summary:
Chernobyl was pretty bad, but often exaggerated. The estimated death count is ~4000. More damage may have been done by the evacuation than by the nuclear accident itself. The accident was caused by human error, but the plant was also just unsafely designed (it was constructed by soviets, who aren't known for their high regard for human lives). It missed a protective hull around the reactor core that all modern reactors have.

Fukushima was terrible. But when I say that, I'm talking about the tsunami, not the nuclear accident. The nuclear accident, according to research by the Japanese parliament, was human caused (regulators didn't regulate well due to corruption) and yielded a death count of 0.

What I don't know much about is the ecological imact of these accidents, I'm going to investigate that more. The documentary, Pandora's Promise, spends a lot of time dealing with Chernobyl and Fukushima.
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Re: Storage solutions for 100% renewable scenario's: hydrogen, ammonium and iron batteries?

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miniboes wrote:The documentary, Pandora's Promise, spends a lot of time dealing with Chernobyl and Fukushima.
I've added it to my watch list.
miniboes wrote:(regulators didn't regulate well due to corruption)
That is certainly a cause of concern, especially when dealing with certain countries.
I've never got around to reading Alexievich's voices from Chernobyl, but from what I know she spent a lot of time writing about their corruption.
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Re: Storage solutions for 100% renewable scenario's: hydrogen, ammonium and iron batteries?

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DarlBundren wrote: Fri May 05, 2017 1:52 pmThat is certainly a cause of concern, especially when dealing with certain countries.
I've never got around to reading Alexievich's voices from Chernobyl, but from what I know she spent a lot of time writing about their corruption.
It is, kind of. Most countries have technologies far riskier than nuclear plants though. It's far more harmful to have coal plants running properly than to have nuclear plants that have an accident every now and then. Proliferation is more of an issue there, but you don't need nuc power plants to get nukes. In fact, it's probably harder to make nukes if you have nuclear power because you'll be under IAEA surveillance.
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Re: Storage solutions for 100% renewable scenario's: hydrogen, ammonium and iron batteries?

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Way too many of the privileged wealthy of the world use up way too much energy. Tax the fuck out of excess energy consumption, and use that money towards renewable energy research.
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Re: Storage solutions for 100% renewable scenario's: hydrogen, ammonium and iron batteries?

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Jebus wrote: Fri May 05, 2017 3:42 pm Way too many of the privileged wealthy of the world use up way too much energy. Tax the fuck out of excess energy consumption, and use that money towards renewable energy research.
Taxes on energy and/or emissions are great, but not enough. Research is important, but we can't gamble on it solving the climate issue for us. I'd also argue that research funds are spent far better on 4th gen nuclear reactor designs.
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Re: Feasibility and cost of 100% renewable energy scenario's

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DarlBundren wrote: Fri May 05, 2017 8:18 am
miniboes wrote:I'll probably make a post about the ecological impacts of the accidents in Fukushima, Three Mile Island and Chernobyl accidents soon.
Very interesting thread. Could you suggest me any good article/video that goes into more depth on the pros and cons of nuclear?
In addition to what I sent, I just found a new youtube channel called 'the Nuclear humanist'. He isn't the most eloquent guy, but his videos are factually accurate as far as I've seen:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClAcmfVpcKCEmHG3VrBh6-A/featured

He has a pretty low voice and talks slowly so i'd recommend playing the vids at x1,25 or x1,5 speed.
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