Giving to the Homeless

[Red]

That's called being a fucking asshole.
Seriously, what the fuck? Someone is homeless and you think THAT is what you say? Someone is asking for your help and you think the best course of action is to spit in their face? You have absolutely no idea what that person's situation is.

Why the hell are you lashing out at me when I say it, but when Jebus says it, it's fine?
And you're right, I don't know this person's situation. I don't know every last thing they've been through. But neither do you. This person probably has more oppurtunities than we can imagine.

In a supposed land of oppurtunity, people aren't really taking advantage of that aspect. I'm not saying go get a six figure job within 2 weeks. What I think is the actual solution? Start small. Get a job being a bus boy at a diner, and as you gain more experience and knowledge, whether through that job and/or school, you can gradually work your way up through the ranks.

While capitalism has it's share of problems and unfairness, it's not impossible to make it out there.

You can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps when you can't afford boots. Not everyone can get a job. Not everyone can live off minimum wage. Some people don't have access to what YOU have access to. Maybe you should get off your goddamn high horse.

I find this somewhat amusing.
Anyways, minimum wage seems to me to be designed to support one person, and one person only. I don't see how a person with minimum wage can't support themselves. As for some people not able to find jobs, I find that hard to believe. While you need expertise to knock down the big bucks, there are some low wage, minimum experience jobs. I heard that some jobs have a hard time finding people with basic manners!

The 1950s song 'Get A Job' comes to mind.

As for your health teacher, he shouldn't be pushing his political beliefs about racism and poverty on the class. Equality has everything to do with opportunity, and not everyone has the same opportunity.

What? Where the fuck are you getting racism? And by the way, he gets most of his viewpoints from books he has read by experts.

[EquALLity]

Why the hell are you lashing out at me when I say it, but when Jebus says it, it's fine?
And you're right, I don't know this person's situation. I don't know every last thing they've been through. But neither do you. This person probably has more oppurtunities than we can imagine.

Jebus didn't say to actually go up to homeless people and tell them to 'get off their asses'. He didn't go THAT far.

Yeah, I don't know what they've been through, so I don't make assumptions that they're lazy etc., because I'm not a presumptuous idiot.

In a supposed land of oppurtunity, people aren't really taking advantage of that aspect. I'm not saying go get a six figure job within 2 weeks. What I think is the actual solution? Start small. Get a job being a bus boy at a diner, and as you gain more experience and knowledge, whether through that job and/or school, you can gradually work your way up through the ranks.

Key word: supposed. What the hell do you know about what people are doing? You're just making assumptions that they aren't trying to find work.

While capitalism has it's share of problems and unfairness, it's not impossible to make it out there.

I'm sure you'd know about what's it.

I find this somewhat amusing.
Anyways, minimum wage seems to me to be designed to support one person, and one person only. I don't see how a person with minimum wage can't support themselves. As for some people not able to find jobs, I find that hard to believe. While you need expertise to knock down the big bucks, there are some low wage, minimum experience jobs. I heard that some jobs have a hard time finding people with basic manners!

Believe it or not, it can actually be hard to find a job when you're homeless and poor, and some people have to support more than just themselves.

The 1950s song 'Get A Job' comes to mind.

The song 'American Idiot' comes to mind.

What? Where the fuck are you getting racism? And by the way, he gets most of his viewpoints from books he has read by experts.

Skin color = race. I guess it was hard to actually read the quote you were typing.

Oh, he says that he gets this stuff from experts? Experts on... what? What experts?
Oh, you don't actually know, you just took his word for it because you blindly accepted everything he said.

[Red]

Jebus didn't say to actually go up to homeless people and tell them to 'get off their asses'. He didn't go THAT far.

He thought it. I read his mind.

Yeah, I don't know what they've been through, so I don't make assumptions that they're lazy etc., because I'm not a presumptuous idiot.

But you were making the presumption that they didn't have opportunities. Admit it; Neither of us know.

Key word: supposed. What the hell do you know about what people are doing? You're just making assumptions that they aren't trying to find work.

Nothing. Do you?

I'm sure you'd know about what's it.

What?

Believe it or not, it can actually be hard to find a job when you're homeless and poor, and some people have to support more than just themselves.

Please, elaborate.

The song 'American Idiot' comes to mind.

Oh shutup, almost every last Greenday song sounds exactly the same.

Skin color = race. I guess it was hard to actually read the quote you were typing.

He claimed that skin color was irrelevant
Honestly, that doesn't sound very racist to me. Please elaborate.

Oh, he says that he gets this stuff from experts? Experts on... what? What experts?
Oh, you don't actually know, you just took his word for it because you blindly accepted everything he said.

Oh y'know, pychologists, successful people, doctors, etc..

And you criticize me for making presumptions.

[EquALLity]

He thought it. I read his mind.

Except you didn't, so that changes nothing.

But you were making the presumption that they didn't have opportunities. Admit it; Neither of us know.

I give people the benefit of the doubt.

Nothing. Do you?

Like I said, I give people the benefit of the doubt.

What?

You don't know anything about finding a job.

Please, elaborate.

Jesus Christ...

1) Getting a job in general is not always easy in your area. You're competing with other people, and if you're homeless, you probably don't have good access to hygienic places, and it's going to be hard to get a job.
2) People have families etc. to support.

Oh shutup, almost every last Greenday song sounds exactly the same.

So does all bullshit rhetoric about 'the takers'.

He claimed that skin color was irrelevant
Honestly, that doesn't sound very racist to me. Please elaborate.

Never said he was racist. I know, reading is very hard.

Oh y'know, pychologists, successful people, doctors, etc..

And you criticize me for making presumptions.

Translation: You have no idea.

Doctors? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Doctors have a lot to do with the topic of homelessness.

[Jebus]

Jebus isn't saying that, he's saying you shouldn't give money or food to the homeless, because apparently he thinks it encourages poverty, not because of potential drug usage

Encourages begging would be a more accurate description of my position. If you disagree I would appreciate if you wrote why.

[Red]

But you were making the presumption that they didn't have opportunities. Admit it; Neither of us know.

I give people the benefit of the doubt.

Nothing. Do you?

Like I said, I give people the benefit of the doubt.

Giving someone the benefit of the doubt doesn't make it true. I care about reality, not what you think.

You don't know anything about finding a job.

Neither do you.

Jesus Christ...

1) Getting a job in general is not always easy in your area. You're competing with other people, and if you're homeless, you probably don't have good access to hygienic places, and it's going to be hard to get a job.

Yeah I'm gonna need a citation for that.

2) People have families etc. to support.

If you don't have a job, I don't think you should have a family in the first place.

So does all bullshit rhetoric about 'the takers'.

Who?

Never said he was racist. I know, reading is very hard.

Actually, you did by saying kinda said he did, but you worded it in just such a way that made it sound as if you were implying he was racist. He's saying skin color is irrelevant. That also goes for gender and sexuality. Kinda racist of you to claim that he was only talking about colored folk.

Translation: You have no idea.

Well how the fuck do you know?

Doctors? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Doctors have a lot to do with the topic of homelessness.

They're not about homelessness. They're about the premise that if you want to make it out there, you have to work for it. I didn't even tell you which books.

Again, you making baseless assumptions.

[EquALLity]

Giving someone the benefit of the doubt doesn't make it true.

No, but it's the moral thing to do. I also believe that most people are homeless due to lack of opportunity, not laziness, because that's what makes the most sense.

I care about reality,

not what you think.

How about we drop this discussion then?

Neither do you.

I've had a job, so...
Granted, I didn't get paid, but I did the same work as the people who got paid. I just didn't get paid because it was my first year, which isn't really fair, but I had to apply etc..

Yeah I'm gonna need a citation for that.

You need a citation that homeless people are less clean and that capitalism is competitive? I give up. I'm not taking this conversation seriously anymore.

If you don't have a job, I don't think you should have a family in the first place.

If you're this dumb, I don't think you should be on the Internet in the first place. Doesn't change the actual situation.

Who?

Conservative propaganda against poor people.

Actually, you did by saying kinda said he did, but you worded it in just such a way that made it sound as if you were implying he was racist. He's saying skin color is irrelevant. That also goes for gender and sexuality. Kinda racist of you to claim that he was only talking about colored folk.

Putting words in my mouth doesn't change what actually happened.
I know, he's saying skin color is irrelevant to opportunity... AKA race is irrelevant to opportunity, AKA there's no such thing as white privilege. Ok.
That also goes for gender and sexuality? So there's no sexism or homophobia. Ok.
Racist, yes. Very racist for me to claim that he has an idea about race that you said he has. What? o_O

Well how the fuck do you know?

I read your mind!

They're not about homelessness. They're about the premise that if you want to make it out there, you have to work for it. I didn't even tell you which books.

Again, you making baseless assumptions.

That still has absolutely nothing to do with doctors. Makes no sense.

[brimstoneSalad]

"You just helped that guy buy heroin." -my brother

Holy shit... Did I?

Probably. Please don't do that. Giving homeless people money is not only NOT effective altruism, but it can harm them by supporting their drug habits.
These people need rehab and vocational education. If you want to help them, donate to those causes (still not effective altruism, but at least not harmless).

You can also buy some non-perishable vegan food that can be eaten without heating and is easy to open. If somebody is legit in a bad place, offer the person food instead. Many will turn it down. Again, not effective altruism though.

I think his sign said something about a ticket... Maybe he was poor and couldn't pay for a ticket. Idk...

You fell for the oldest line in the book. "His car broke down/he got stranded and he just needs enough for a ticket home!"
This is a very common con.
Here's a lengthy breakdown of one con:
http://listofscams.blogspot.com/2011/06/panhandling-scams-break-down-part-1.html
Here are a few stories:
https://www.reddit.com/r/boston/comments/15zxiz/what_scam_artist_panhandlers_have_you_seen_in/

What do you guys think?
What do you think about giving to people on the road in general?

And please NEVER give people money on the road. It causes traffic congestion, and a smaller percentage of them will car jack or rob you, so it's actually dangerous.

[brimstoneSalad]

Are you against giving them food as well?

Yes, I used to live in Canada and find the number of beggars ridiculous given the opportunities that are available to people. No one likes to have beggars around and the only reason they are there is because people (like you) give them money. You had the opportunity to instead donate that money to The Humane League where it really could have made a positive difference but instead you gave the money to some dude who now will be a little less motivated to learn a skill and/or find a job.

I agree on the point of effective altruism.

However, to be fair, many people who are on the streets are homeless due to mental illness and substance abuse; it's more that they can't get their shit together because they have serious problems. I've met and talked with a lot of them.

There are also the scammers and opportunistic panhandlers who can or could get it together if they cleaned up their acts (and don't have serious substance abuse issues or mental illness), are relatively clean cut, and they just find this and easier way to get high and not have to work. These people are legitimately lazy. PsYcHo has it right. You can make $50 in a couple hours if you scam people like that. Why work minimum wage for eight hours when you can earn the same in a few minutes (most of the time is just hanging around outside looking for a mark, very little actual work).

The difference is usually pretty clear in terms of their personal hygiene. Somebody with serious problems who doesn't have a lot of other options has usually let his or herself go.

Giving someone the benefit of the doubt doesn't make it true.

No, but it's the moral thing to do. I also believe that most people are homeless due to lack of opportunity, not laziness, because that's what makes the most sense.

There's a difference between actually homeless and panhandling.

There are homeless people who don't beg, and there are beggars who aren't homeless. Those of us who have been around probably have experience with both. There are lazy people out there who just want to panhandle for a couple hours to scam people, then go home and get high and play Xbox.

For people without a choice, as I said above, it's usually a third option: they have mental illness or severe substance abuse problems (often both).
They need to be institutionalized. There's nothing you can do for them, and if you try to help them they can be randomly violent due to their mental illnesses.

It's the moral thing to give somebody the benefit of the doubt in your conversations with that person, but it's not always moral to assume what they're saying is true to the extent you act on it to expend resources.

It's just useless to call them liars.

Either they're scamming you, in which case calling them out won't help because they don't care, and may even provoke them to violence.
Or they're legit, and you were just an asshole to innocent people.

Sometimes there ARE people who just need a bus ticket. But for every legit person who needs help, there are thousands faking it, so overall you're doing harm by giving them money. Somebody who IS legit will find help.
But you should treat all of them with compassion with respect to the words you use: a kind word is free, and they can't buy drugs with it. Just never give them money.

[Red]

I care about reality,

I know right! Cause what a ridiculous thing to say.

How about we drop this discussion then?

Well you started it.

I've had a job, so...
Granted, I didn't get paid, but I did the same work as the people who got paid. I just didn't get paid because it was my first year, which isn't really fair, but I had to apply etc..

That sounded like an internship, not a job.
Of course people are willing to hire you if you're willing to offer services for free.
But by your own logic, I also have had a job. At my school, there is an environmental club that I am in, and we help raise money and we do charity work. We're also planning on helping out at the Samartian Village that's nearby.

I also went to a meeting that offered people to go to Arizona to help set up water stands for illegal immigrants. I didn't get picked for that one, since they only took 15 people and about 90 people applied, but I'm planning on going on the trip that they have in June.

You need a citation that homeless people are less clean and that capitalism is competitive? I give up. I'm not taking this conversation seriously anymore.

Yes, I know capitalism is competitive. That's why you have to compete. If you keep failing, the only solution is to keep trying until you succeed.

If you're this dumb, I don't think you should be on the Internet in the first place. Doesn't change the actual situation.

I love how you don't address the argument.

Putting words in my mouth doesn't change what actually happened.
I know, he's saying skin color is irrelevant to opportunity... AKA race is irrelevant to opportunity, AKA there's no such thing as white privilege. Ok.

I thought we went over that intersectional theory was PC nonsense.

That also goes for gender and sexuality? So there's no sexism or homophobia. Ok.

Systematically, I've not seen any in recent memory. There is actually a debate going on that say that women have more rights than men, such as being exempt from selective services, allowing to give consent if they wish to be circumcised (while men are circumcised during infancy), child custody court cases generally being in favor of the mother, regardless of how good of a parent they are, and women getting less jail time than men (not 100% sure about this one).

I read your mind!

No, because you don't have the T Shirt of the Dead

That still has absolutely nothing to do with doctors. Makes no sense.

Yeah, y'know it's not like the rapists/psychiatrists can be referred to as doctors.