Can a religious group on a university campus discriminate?

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cufflink
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Can a religious group on a university campus discriminate?

Post by cufflink »

In lieu of debates with theists, I thought it might be interesting for us to discuss issues in the news that touch on religion. Here's a start.

This article appeared in yesterday's New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/10/us/co ... olicy.html

The comments are worth reading too. (I've generally found the NYT comments to be on a pretty high level; they're carefully monitored so you don't get a YouTube-type cesspool.)

In a nutshell: There's an evangelical group at a U.S. university. It's "officially recognized," which means it gets university funding, a place to meet, a place for announcements, etc. But the university has a non-discrimination policy: any student can join any officially recognized group. The evangelicals balked, saying that to join them, you need to be a Bible-believing Christian. So the university revoked their official status.

I'm kind of torn here.

On the one hand, I'm all for non-discrimination.

On the other hand, if there are going to be officially recognized religious organizations on campus, does it make sense for them to have to take in people who don't adhere to the religion that's the basis for the group in the first place?

Some relevant facts:

1. Most of the other student religious groups on campus haven't had a problem with the non-discrimination requirement.

2. As one commenter pointed out, it's not a free-speech issue. The university is not trying to silence the group. It's just saying that it will no longer be officially recognized--no more funding, etc. The group is still free to meet informally wherever they can find space.

What do you think? Is the university correct in its decision? Or is this a case of going too far in a "politically correct" direction?
One Moment in Annihilation's Waste,
One Moment of the Well of Life to taste--
The Stars are setting, and the Caravan
Draws to the Dawn of Nothing--Oh, make haste!

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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Can a religious group on a university campus discriminat

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Great thread. I think most people will take the university's side on this, since the campus group chose to take university money.
cufflink wrote: What do you think? Is the university correct in its decision? Or is this a case of going too far in a "politically correct" direction?
The University is correct. If they accept university funding- which comes from ALL of the students- then they can not discriminate against any of those students in regards to membership.

Religious groups on campus can not get special treatment over any others. If religious groups are allowed to discriminate, then all of the groups must be allowed to discriminate.

Because the funding a student group receives is in proportion to its membership, there is an argument to be made that ALL student groups should be allowed to discriminate- e.g. that the students can start a KKK or neonazi group if they want, and exclude other races- but the university has a right to decide for itself if it wants to promote an environment of discrimination or inclusion on its campus, and it has decided in favor of inclusion on that point (which was a wise decision on its part).

They understand that when you broadly allow and condone discrimination, it is a slippery slope.
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Re: Can a religious group on a university campus discriminat

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This also relates to a similar case where two teenagers wanted to form an atheist club in a public school but were denied, and eventually were granted their club. It seems as though people of religion seem to think that they have leverage over others when it comes to most things.
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Re: Can a religious group on a university campus discriminat

Post by cufflink »

dan1073 wrote:This also relates to a similar case where two teenagers wanted to form an atheist club in a public school but were denied, and eventually were granted their club.
I hadn't heard about that case, but it seems pretty clear that if religious clubs are allowed in public schools, atheist clubs should be as well. I'm glad the school in question eventually came around.
One Moment in Annihilation's Waste,
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Re: Can a religious group on a university campus discriminat

Post by Neptual »

cufflink wrote:
dan1073 wrote:This also relates to a similar case where two teenagers wanted to form an atheist club in a public school but were denied, and eventually were granted their club.
I hadn't heard about that case, but it seems pretty clear that if religious clubs are allowed in public schools, atheist clubs should be as well. I'm glad the school in question eventually came around.
I'm surprised that you haven't. Here's the full story http://www.religionnews.com/2014/02/28/ ... g-threats/
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Re: Can a religious group on a university campus discriminat

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brimstoneSalad wrote: The University is correct. If they accept university funding- which comes from ALL of the students- then they can not discriminate against any of those students in regards to membership.
I basically agree with you. But let me play devil's advocate for a minute. Consider this hypothetical but not implausible scenario:

A small group of students at a university in the American Bible Belt, feeling out of place in a belief-ridden environment, form an Atheist and Freethinkers Club, which receives official status. Learning of this, a group of evangelical students decide it's their Christian duty to bring Jesus to these heathens. So, taking advantage of the university's non-discrimination policy, they join the atheist club, outnumbering the actual atheists. And they take every opportunity to "witness" to the original members--in the nicest, most caring way, of course. The safe-haven aspect of the club is now history. What recourse do the club's founders have in this situation, given the policy that any student can join any club?
Last edited by cufflink on Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can a religious group on a university campus discriminat

Post by TheVeganAtheist »

I believe that a university can set its own rules, but should be done within the law, and consistently. If a university allows for groups to set requirements for clubs, then it should allow for all groups to do so. If a university sets the rules for all groups to be open to all people, then it should be applied across the board.

In some ways I would favour a scenario in which a club can restrict members because the club could end up being a mix bag of people representing opposing perspectives and the club would no longer function in its purpose. I guess the purpose of the club would need to be stipulated in advance as well (for instance is the club a debate club, or a social club wherein you meet like minded individuals with similar interests).
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Re: Can a religious group on a university campus discriminat

Post by cufflink »

dan1073 wrote:I'm surprised that you haven't. Here's the full story http://www.religionnews.com/2014/02/28/ ... g-threats/
Thanks for the link. Too bad the story actually has a very unhappy ending, although I can't say I'm surprised.

It never ceases to amaze me how atheism creates so much hostility in religious people. When they find out you're an atheist, it's rarely, "Well, we have different beliefs about God, but each to his own." The reaction is more like what it would be if you punched them in the nose, raped their womenfolk, and burned down their house.
One Moment in Annihilation's Waste,
One Moment of the Well of Life to taste--
The Stars are setting, and the Caravan
Draws to the Dawn of Nothing--Oh, make haste!

—Fitzgerald, Rubáiyát, 2nd ed., XLIX
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: Can a religious group on a university campus discriminat

Post by brimstoneSalad »

cufflink wrote: A small group of students at a university in the American Bible Belt, feeling out of place in a belief-ridden environment, form an Atheist and Freethinkers Club, which receives official status. Learning of this, a group of evangelical students decide it's their Christian duty to bring Jesus to these heathens. So, taking advantage of the university's non-discrimination policy, they join the atheist club, outnumbering the actual atheists. And they take every opportunity to "witness" to the original members--in the nicest, most caring way, of course. The safe-haven aspect of the club is now history. What recourse do the club's founders have in this situation, given the policy that any student can join any club?
Clubs can usually expel members for bad behavior.

If the Christians want to actually have a polite dialogue, I'd personally welcome it. I can handle five on one debates.
Any bit of opposition to their world view, and any creeping questions they can't answer, helps in the long run.

That's probably where the Christians got in trouble- they DON'T want dialogue. They want a bubble where they can be isolated, rather than challenged, in their beliefs. When the two are on an even playing field, in the market place of ideas, Christianity loses because it has no rational arguments behind it.

Also: Clubs usually receive funding in proportion to membership. The Christians joining just more than doubled the budget. Thanks.

As to elections: Clubs usually have pretty clear mission statements. It's unlikely that the university would allow a Christian, or anybody, if elected to club president to derail the club to advocate for Jesus instead of for the intended purpose (it wouldn't take many existing Atheists students to complain, and reveal that bullying was clearly going on).
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Re: Can a religious group on a university campus discriminat

Post by cufflink »

brimstoneSalad wrote:
Clubs can usually expel members for bad behavior.
Yes, although there's often disagreement on what constitutes bad behavior.
Also: Clubs usually receive funding in proportion to membership. The Christians joining just more than doubled the budget. Thanks.
Good point.

In the end, what decides it for me is that no one is telling any group they can't discriminate. An informal, non-official group on campus can include and exclude whomever they want. If they seek official status, however, they have to play by the rules.
One Moment in Annihilation's Waste,
One Moment of the Well of Life to taste--
The Stars are setting, and the Caravan
Draws to the Dawn of Nothing--Oh, make haste!

—Fitzgerald, Rubáiyát, 2nd ed., XLIX
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