Punishments for misgendering?

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Lightningman_42
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Punishments for misgendering?

Post by Lightningman_42 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:02 pm

"California Proposes Jail Time for Using the Wrong Pronoun for Transgenders."

News article* about proposed laws against misgendering.

I'm curious to know what you all think about this. Should people who defy others' preferred gender pronouns be punished by the law for doing so? If so, what punishments would you be in favor of? Jail time? Fines? Something Else?

Any specific circumstances under which this should happen, or not happen? The article is speaking specifically about misgendering senior citizens. When should going against someone's personal preferences about their gender be punished by the law? When should it not be punished by the law?

Is this even a real article? A law like this just seems kind of far-fetched to me.


* http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2017/july/california-proposes-jail-time-for-using-the-wrong-pronoun-for-senior-transgenders
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knot
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Re: Punishments for misgendering?

Post by knot » Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:53 pm

I'm torn on this. It seems like a bad idea, but maybe we could just jail the stupid 'skeptic' youtubers who keep insisting that gender = sex, even though the terms are clearly defined differently. ^^

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Re: Punishments for misgendering?

Post by Commissaris » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:22 am

Lightningman_42 wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:02 pm
I'm curious to know what you all think about this. Should people who defy others' preferred gender pronouns be punished by the law for doing so? If so, what punishments would you be in favor of? Jail time? Fines? Something Else?
Generally, I don't believe we should go about legislating respect. If I refuse to be polite to an elderly person I can be sure to receive a negative social response and organisations that have policy against that sort of thing can choose to eject me or even ban me for behaving in that way. I don't believe the courts should get involved in this.

Beyond the overreach and the practical problems there comes the issue of abuse: what pronouns are officially sanctioned and which ones aren't? It's manageable with 'he' and 'she', but what if someone requests another one?

On the article specifically:
The article wrote:California is on its way to passing a new law that makes it illegal to call transgender senior citizens a pronoun they don't like. For example, if an elderly person who was born male and lives in a long-term care facility wishes to be called "her" or "she," the workers there had better do it or face the consequences. The proposed law would even apply to Christian facilities."
The context discussed in the article refers to care facilities and within those confines I think the law makes a lot of sense. They're dealing with legally recognized transgender people and the facility has an obligation to professionalism and decency. People working there aren't there as private citizens but rather as employees within a company. Companies are compelled to treat citizens in a respectful manner. Just like how a Christian baker cannot discriminate by refusing to bake for homosexual people, so too can a care facility not discriminate against people in their care.

Context is very important. The proposed law doesn't seem at all unreasonable to me based on the article (which is very leading by the way).

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Re: Punishments for misgendering?

Post by teo123 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:31 pm

I don't really understand why would anyone be proud or ashamed of their gender. Perhaps that would make sense 1000 years ago, when men and women really lived differently, but today it just makes no sense. I mean, like, there is no difference between male and female brain, so what the hell would "I am a woman in a male body." mean? Can somebody help me understand that? Personally, I think that people should have the right to wear clothes of the opposite gender in the sense that it shouldn't be illegal, but I don't think any law could, or should, protect you from consequences of doing that. By that line of reasoning, there should be a law protecting you if you wear a T-shirt with a swastika, and that would obviously be silly. I realize that we shouldn't tolerate intolerance. But saying "I hate my gender and want to change it." is pretty much intolerent in itself.

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Re: Punishments for misgendering?

Post by Commissaris » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:37 pm

teo123 wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:31 pm
I mean, like, there is no difference between male and female brain, so what the hell would "I am a woman in a male body." mean? Can somebody help me understand that? <...> But saying "I hate my gender and want to change it." is pretty much intolerent in itself.
I have been given to understand that there are a lot of differences between the structures of male and female brains, and gender dysphoria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria) is a psychiatrically recognized condition. I recommend speaking to someone who is well-educated on the scientific consensus on this if you want to assert or challenge anything. Summarizing the condition in the way you seems very unfair and perhaps a bit resentful.

People want to be proud of their gender if they are confronted by social input that tells them they should feel shame. Gay pride is a response to a long-standing culture of gay-bashing, for example. Conversely, I don't celebrate being male for example because I wasn't born into a culture that disparaged me on that basis, at that time anyway.

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Re: Punishments for misgendering?

Post by brimstoneSalad » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:39 pm

Commissaris wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:37 pm
I have been given to understand that there are a lot of differences between the structures of male and female brains, and gender dysphoria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria) is a psychiatrically recognized condition.
Right, there are definitely important biological aspects. A brain is not just a brain, it can be gendered.
It's mainly the social conventions that make people feel uncomfortable in their own bodies, though. That is, it's not the genitals themselves, but the social roles that those genitals are correlated to that people don't fit into.

For this reason, gender dysphoria tends to go away after a decade or two, although that's not to make light of the years of misery somebody may experience. It's potentially better to undergo gender reassignment and then enjoy the next couple decades in the prime of life than to wait until middle age to finally feel comfortable in your own skin.
Commissaris wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:37 pm
I recommend speaking to someone who is well-educated on the scientific consensus on this if you want to assert or challenge anything. Summarizing the condition in the way you seems very unfair and perhaps a bit resentful.
Teo is the fellow I talked out of flat-earthism and who promptly jumped into another conspiracy driven worldview (radical anarchism; he thinks murder should be legal). Not to poison the well, but that is the consequence of a mostly free-speech forum. I just want to let you know ahead of time so you don't spend too much time on him expecting results. I've given up as I have realized it is a game of whack-a-mole. ;)
Commissaris wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:37 pm
People want to be proud of their gender if they are confronted by social input that tells them they should feel shame. Gay pride is a response to a long-standing culture of gay-bashing, for example. Conversely, I don't celebrate being male for example because I wasn't born into a culture that disparaged me on that basis, at that time anyway.
Right, pride is not necessarily rational in itself, but it makes sense in the context of a counter-culture (even if it may be counter productive in some ways and generate a counter-counter-culture as a response to what people see as unwarranted pride-- I think we just need a better word because "pride" doesn't fit well and has implications of superiority).

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Re: Punishments for misgendering?

Post by EquALLity » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:48 pm

teo123 wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:31 pm
I don't really understand why would anyone be proud or ashamed of their gender. Perhaps that would make sense 1000 years ago, when men and women really lived differently, but today it just makes no sense. I mean, like, there is no difference between male and female brain, so what the hell would "I am a woman in a male body." mean? Can somebody help me understand that? Personally, I think that people should have the right to wear clothes of the opposite gender in the sense that it shouldn't be illegal, but I don't think any law could, or should, protect you from consequences of doing that. By that line of reasoning, there should be a law protecting you if you wear a T-shirt with a swastika, and that would obviously be silly. I realize that we shouldn't tolerate intolerance. But saying "I hate my gender and want to change it." is pretty much intolerent in itself.
"There is no difference between a male and female brain."
...There is.

"I think that people should have the right to wear clothes of the opposite gender in the sense that it shouldn't be illegal, but I don't think any law could, or should, protect you from consequences of doing that"
You believe in laws?

What do you mean by protect?

"But saying "I hate my gender and want to change it." is pretty much intolerent in itself"
Words don't just change meaning based on your social/political views. Intolerance in this context (politically) is prejudice or discrimination towards certain people.
What you said is like saying gay people are intolerant of women.
"I am not a Marxist." -Karl Marx

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Re: Punishments for misgendering?

Post by Commissaris » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:12 am

brimstoneSalad wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:39 pm
Gender dysphoria tends to go away after a decade or two, although that's not to make light of the years of misery somebody may experience.
This is news to me, I'll check it out. Thank you for that valuable little tidbit. I just assumed the condition typically sticks around until death.
I just want to let you know ahead of time so you don't spend too much time on him expecting results. I've given up as I have realized it is a game of whack-a-mole.
I'll keep that in mind to avoid wasting my time!
I think we just need a better word because "pride" doesn't fit well and has implications of superiority.
Seems fair to me! Gay Acceptance? Gay-Okay? Anti-Gay Away? I'm sure people have already come up with alternatives. My brother actually suggested that we should eventually be looking for alternative phrases to things like 'mockmeat' because it implies that animal flesh is not only the baseline, but the (better) original following the "logic" of "the copy can't beat the original, right?" I thought the suggestion was pretty compelling although I'm not sure if we're at a point where other terms would catch on.

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Re: Punishments for misgendering?

Post by Jamie in Chile » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:16 pm

Seems a bit harsh but I'd be amazed if anyone actually serves time for this anytime soon.

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Re: Punishments for misgendering?

Post by brimstoneSalad » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:58 pm

Commissaris wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:12 am
Seems fair to me! Gay Acceptance? Gay-Okay?
Those are much better, since they imply neutrality. Only the worst bigots will get mad at people wanting to be seen as equals.
Commissaris wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:12 am
My brother actually suggested that we should eventually be looking for alternative phrases to things like 'mockmeat' because it implies that animal flesh is not only the baseline, but the (better) original following the "logic" of "the copy can't beat the original, right?" I thought the suggestion was pretty compelling although I'm not sure if we're at a point where other terms would catch on.
Clean meat has been suggested for in-vitro meat. Plant-meat of plant-based meat has been used a bit. Beyond meat does this.

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