Should I do a major in philosophy?

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carnap
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Re: Should I do a major in philosophy?

Post by carnap »

brimstoneSalad wrote: Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:32 am Makes sense. Just like when you build a building you start with a shitty foundation that's falling apart, build your building, then use cranes to hold up the building while you chisel out the old foundation and pour a good one. ;)
General relativity may prove to be just as "shitty" as a foundation. Newtonian physics held up to observation for a long time, it was only when more precise technology came about did we start to observe things that couldn't be explained by Newtonian physics.
brimstoneSalad wrote: Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:32 am Like it's any easier in empirical science? Nothing is ever 100% proven in empirical science. It's pretty easy for people (including scientists) with strong biases to reject obvious facts like anthropogenic climate change and the nutritional adequacy of a properly planned vegan diet.
Yes, much easier. And we were talking about a consensus not proof. Consensus formation is much easier in the sciences because those that disagree with a theory need to come up with falsifying observations. Overtime the failure to falsify a theory will tend towards consensus. The same doesn't happen in philosophy because you really cannot "falsify" or confirm anything.

Also just as a matter of fact, there are far more consensus in science than philosophy. Take a physics 101 course and you'll be confronted with a clear consensus on the subject. Take a philosophy 101 course and you'll be confronted with various conflicting arguments about topics that there is no obvious way to resolve.
brimstoneSalad wrote: Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:32 am I'd say it should be easier in philosophy, because when formalized basic logic is pretty non-controversial.
Actually....not really. There are various forms of logic so picking classical logic as your standard is to a degree controversial. But ignoring that, formalization of an argument only allows you to analyze the logical structure of the argument. It does nothing to tell you about the truth or meaning of some proposition used in the argument which is typically the critical issue. Philosophers aren't debating about topics that can easily be resolved by formalizing the arguments.
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Re: Should I do a major in philosophy?

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carnap wrote: Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:24 am It does? So to be "open minded" you have to read or listen to every article, lecture, etc that is given by someone?
Well yeah, pretty much.
What, are you going to send me a 3 hour long presentation now?
carnap wrote: Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:24 amAs I said, I listened to a bit of it and it became clear that the person didn't know much about philosophy. I looked up the speaker and found that he has no background in philosophy. Why would I continue? Time is limited.
You can save some time by putting it on 2x speed. Just putting that out there.
carnap wrote: Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:24 amBut if you think the author made a good point by all means briefly explain it.
Are you implying that I haven't watched it?
I already kinda did. And it wouldn't really be a good idea for me to do that, since a brief explanation, especially from someone like me, will leave out key details and information, and when you ask about it, I'll have to tell you about it. Methinks it's best you save us both time by watching it yourself, sizzle chest.
carnap wrote: Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:24 am Philosophy departments don't take a priority on the history of philosophy. I'm not sure where that is coming from because your typical philosophy department requires only 1~2 classes in the history of philosophy. As I mentioned previously, the only thing I can think of is that you think because you're learning about someone's thought that has been long dead you're learning about "history". But that isn't usually what is happening.
I think brim and I addressed this?

carnap wrote: Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:24 am I don't agree, studying the history of science is critical to understanding the nature of science. Likewise for the philosophy of science.
How?
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Re: Should I do a major in philosophy?

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Red wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:06 pm Well yeah, pretty much.
What, are you going to send me a 3 hour long presentation now?
Then everyone is close minded, due to limited time everyone has to make choices about what they read, watch, etc.
If you don't want to briefly summarize his point that is fine....but I still have no reason to watch the video.
Red wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:06 pm I think brim and I addressed this?
Where? What has been said doesn't seem to accurately address what is done in philosophy departments. Perhaps looking at some of the requirements of top philosophy departments would be useful? For example Stanford's program only requires 2 history classes:

https://philosophy.stanford.edu/degree-programs/undergraduate/major

They have a separate program for the history and philosophy of science that is more historic in nature but you're mostly studying the history of science not philosophy.
Red wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:06 pm How?
History because it teaches you the reason and context for the development of current theories. Philosophy of science because it gets people thinking about the nature of science itself. But it depends what you're thriving for, if you're only interested in getting a middle of the run job in science then learning about history and science isn't going to do you much good. In this sense its more like a trade-program. But if you want to work on cutting edge science they become more especial, I cannot think of any major scientists that was ignorant of the history and philosophy of science.
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Re: Should I do a major in philosophy?

Post by Red »

carnap wrote: Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:30 pm Then everyone is close minded, due to limited time everyone has to make choices about what they read, watch, etc.
If you don't want to briefly summarize his point that is fine....but I still have no reason to watch the video.
Everyone?
Red wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:06 pm I think brim and I addressed this?
carnap wrote: Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:30 pmWhere? What has been said doesn't seem to accurately address what is done in philosophy departments. Perhaps looking at some of the requirements of top philosophy departments would be useful? For example Stanford's program only requires 2 history classes:

https://philosophy.stanford.edu/degree-programs/undergraduate/major

They have a separate program for the history and philosophy of science that is more historic in nature but you're mostly studying the history of science not philosophy.
Doesn't that just prove what I just said? Where they're talking about this history than the matter itself?
carnap wrote: Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:30 pm History because it teaches you the reason and context for the development of current theories. Philosophy of science because it gets people thinking about the nature of science itself. But it depends what you're thriving for, if you're only interested in getting a middle of the run job in science then learning about history and science isn't going to do you much good. In this sense its more like a trade-program. But if you want to work on cutting edge science they become more especial, I cannot think of any major scientists that was ignorant of the history and philosophy of science.
Context is irrelevant. It doesn't make a difference if something was discovered 10 years ago or 100 years ago; the science is still the same.
If you mean context within the science, that's still studying science.
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Re: Should I do a major in philosophy?

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Red wrote: Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:38 pm Everyone?
Everyone that is mortal.
Red wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:06 pm Doesn't that just prove what I just said? Where they're talking about this history than the matter itself?
What claim do you think it proves? The comments in this thread suggested that philosophy is dominated by history where as I've claimed that history is a relatively minor component of the study of philosophy at most universities. The Stanford program only requires 2 courses in the history of philosophy which is consistent with my claim.
Red wrote: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:06 pm Context is irrelevant. It doesn't make a difference if something was discovered 10 years ago or 100 years ago; the science is still the same.
If you mean context within the science, that's still studying science.
10 years ago or 100 years ago are both a matter of history. History provides context for current theories, it tells you how people discovered them, why they were of interest and so on. And the study of history, including the history of science, is not "within science"....its a meta-scientific activity.
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Re: Should I do a major in philosophy?

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Red wrote: Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:38 pm Doesn't that just prove what I just said? Where they're talking about this history than the matter itself?
if you really look at it, I think so.

It's 8 units minimum out of 55. About 15% of explicit coursework in history.
But that's not the extent of history; there's a lot of it baked into the rest of the classes too.
Contemporary theoretical philosophy (PHIL 180s) is probably mostly a history class too, covering a lot of garbage since Kant, which brings the more explicit total to 22%.

Many other courses (if you look at the catalog) are dedicated to one particular work or person, which is more study of historical philosophy.
PHIL 220 (section 1)
Leibniz (PHIL 120)
A polymath, Leibniz invented the calculus independently of Newton and made major contributions to virtually every science, including logic and computer science. In this...

PHIL 225 (section 1)
Kant's First Critique (PHIL 125)
(Graduate students register for 225.) The founding work of Kant's critical philosophy emphasizing his contributions to metaphysics and epistemology. His attempts to limit...

PHIL 229 (section 1)
Plotinus and Augustine (PHIL 329, RELIGST 269, RELIGST 369)
Professor's permission required to register. A reading course focused on the influence of Plotinus Enneads on Augustine's Confessions, early dialogues, and sections on...
You *might* be able to avoid them, but it wouldn't necessarily be easy. Classes like that seem to be about half of those available.

And you're still going to be studying a lot of history in almost every single other class, because it's easy filler.

Sure, if YOU want to avoid history and you try very hard & talk to the professors about it, you might be able to waste less than 1/3rd of your time/money on it by focusing on the formal classes. Still not a good prospect, and you could always end up getting unlucky with your schedule and have to choose one as an elective.
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Re: Should I do a major in philosophy?

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brimstoneSalad wrote: Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:09 pm It's 8 units minimum out of 55. About 15% of explicit coursework in history.
But that's not the extent of history; there's a lot of it baked into the rest of the classes too.
Contemporary theoretical philosophy (PHIL 180s) is probably mostly a history class too, covering a lot of garbage since Kant, which brings the more explicit total to 22%.
Its a minimum of 55 units just for the major, there are a variety of university requirement as well which would make the percent spent on history rather low. That course isn't mostly history, just because a course discusses thoughts of people that are dead doesn't make it a history class. In fact the vast majority of what you study in undergrad mathematics or physics is from many decades ago and its still taught because its still relevant, same goes with philosophy.

But this just one department, many require even less. For example at UCLA you'd only need to take one history class:

http://philosophy.ucla.edu/undergraduate/majors-and-minors/


The Idea that academic philosophy is fixated on history is unfounded. History of philosophy is a small sub-field of philosophy and the vast majority of works published in philosophy aren't historic in nature. The programs themselves aren't oriented around history and instead just require 1~2 courses in history. Though you will find more history courses at some universities than others and that is because some universities have a strength in history while others don't.
brimstoneSalad wrote: Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:09 pm Many other courses (if you look at the catalog) are dedicated to one particular work or person, which is more study of historical philosophy.
To say it again, exploring the ideas of people that are dead is not the same as studying history. In every field you study ideas from people that are long since dead. As such a course on Kant is no different than a course in Newtonian physics. A course on Kant isn't just of historic value, like Newton his ideas are still relevant today.
I'm here to exploit you schmucks into demonstrating the blatant anti-intellectualism in the vegan community and the reality of veganism. But I can do that with any user name.
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