Would you kill baby Hitler?

Off-topic talk on music, art, literature, games and forum games.
User avatar
Lay Vegan
Full Member
Posts: 149
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:05 pm
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegan

Re: Would you kill baby Hitler?

Post by Lay Vegan » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:45 pm

EquALLity wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:22 pm
The reason why I would take the gamble is because the consequences of Hitler were so bad that they're very difficult to match, so it's unlikely the consequences of killing Hitler would match them.
Can you be sure of this? Someone could have easily replaced him and committed some equivalent tragedy. Poverty stricken and humiliated 1920's Germany was ripe for some charismatic person to come and make promises to return the country to its "former glory." Even some of Hitler's henchmen, Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels, or Heinrich Himmler proved to be as equally intent on genocide as Hitler. Couldn't some of his henchmen have taken his spot in some alternate universe?

This is also assuming that Hitler's death doesn't set in motion a list of events that result in a worse outcome than what we have.

User avatar
PsYcHo
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1097
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:24 pm
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Pescetarian

Post by PsYcHo » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:57 pm

If the only concern is that by killing hitler, you would reduce the number of people who suffered, and you have access to a time machine, why not go back in time and kill the first mutation that lead to humans.

No humans= No human suffering, right?
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.

User avatar
Red
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 2374
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:59 pm
Location: The United Continents of Earth

Post by Red » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:27 pm

PsYcHo wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:57 pm
If the only concern is that by killing hitler, you would reduce the number of people who suffered, and you have access to a time machine, why not go back in time and kill the first mutation that lead to humans.

No humans= No human suffering, right?
I find your misanthropy disturbing. Why would you want to prevent one of the nature's finest creations?

Tell me, why exactly don't you appreciate the whole of humanity? You have a double standard of sorts by wanting to help humanity and often make quips about how humans are the worst. Thing. Ever.
VOTE

Red For President
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz For Vice President

2056

User avatar
PsYcHo
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1097
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:24 pm
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Pescetarian

Post by PsYcHo » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:46 pm

Red wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:27 pm
I find your misanthropy disturbing.
Thanks!
Red wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:27 pm
Why would you want to prevent one of the nature's finest creations?
Never said I did. It was a question, not my personal opinion.
Red wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:27 pm
You have a double standard of sorts by wanting to help humanity and often make quips about how humans are the worst. Thing. Ever.
How is it a double standard to want to help the worst thing ever? Maybe I want to help them not be the worst.
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.

User avatar
Red
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 2374
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:59 pm
Location: The United Continents of Earth

Post by Red » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:09 pm

PsYcHo wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:46 pm
Red wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:27 pm
Why would you want to prevent one of the nature's finest creations?
Never said I did. It was a question, not my personal opinion.
Red wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:27 pm
You have a double standard of sorts by wanting to help humanity and often make quips about how humans are the worst. Thing. Ever.
How is it a double standard to want to help the worst thing ever? Maybe I want to help them not be the worst.
You made a eemark about how eradicating humanz would end human suffering yet you want to help. Do not make sense crakr
VOTE

Red For President
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz For Vice President

2056

User avatar
PsYcHo
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1097
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:24 pm
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Pescetarian

Post by PsYcHo » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:05 am

If you remember, I was against killing lil' hitler.

For those that would kill baby hitler, it seemed like their argument was to cause less suffering. Killing baby hitler would reduce suffering, but killing all of humanity before it began would eradicate human suffering 100%. So why, if in for a penny, why not in for a pound?
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.

User avatar
EquALLity
I am God
Posts: 2980
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:31 am
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegan
Location: United States of Canada

Post by EquALLity » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:09 pm

RedAppleGP wrote:That is not at all what I am saying.

I'm trying to say you don't know the consequences for sure. Maybe killing baby Hitler would lead to a better world, maybe a worse world, or maybe a world of equivalent value. You can't know these things unless you know all the factors, which is impossible even to the most diligent historian.

When I say statistic, I'm asking for the chances of how doing the deed would have a positive impact, and how you got to that statistic.

Maybe one of the Jews killed in the Holocaust would have been a genocidal dictator far surpassing Hitler to pay back the thousands of years of mistreatment. Is that true? We don't know.

I'm also trying to say that an action no matter how good it bad, may have positive or negative outcomes in the unforeseeable future.
I agree that you don't know, but you can say that about anything. Just because you don't know something doesn't mean you cannot make an educated guess. Just because we don't know the outcome of something doesn't mean we should treat every outcome as equally likely.

As I mentioned, the reason why I think it would likely be better if the Holocaust didn't happen is because very few things can be as bad as the Holocaust.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're saying that we shouldn't try to stop the Holocaust if we can, because we don't know if keeping it would be worse than stopping it. That's like saying that I shouldn't try to look for my dog if she gets lost, because we don't know if finding her would make me happier. We don't know, but we can make an educated guess.
There have been much worse than Hitler.
Such as?

And it matters because?
You know, a lot of terrible things throughout history have shown us how bad they are, and that's why things like murder and rape have gone down, as we become a more civilized society. Now I lived most of my life in a world after, but from what I've been told, 9/11 changed the world, likely for the better AFAIK.

Now it would be great if we didn't need bad things to happen to learn from them, but men aren't angels, and there will always be something bad happening.
The Holocaust happening didn't stop multiple other genocides from happening after, such as the genocide happening currently in Myanmar of the Rohingya.
And I'll be sure to ask this if I have not, how do you know it's unlikely that nothing worse would happen? Is there any evidence of this? This is just an assumption. Maybe something worse will happen, maybe it won't.
Because as I mentioned, most things aren't as bad as the Holocaust.
"I am not a Marxist." -Karl Marx

User avatar
EquALLity
I am God
Posts: 2980
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:31 am
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Vegan
Location: United States of Canada

Post by EquALLity » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:13 pm

Lay Vegan wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:45 pm
EquALLity wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:22 pm
The reason why I would take the gamble is because the consequences of Hitler were so bad that they're very difficult to match, so it's unlikely the consequences of killing Hitler would match them.
Can you be sure of this? Someone could have easily replaced him and committed some equivalent tragedy. Poverty stricken and humiliated 1920's Germany was ripe for some charismatic person to come and make promises to return the country to its "former glory." Even some of Hitler's henchmen, Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels, or Heinrich Himmler proved to be as equally intent on genocide as Hitler. Couldn't some of his henchmen have taken his spot in some alternate universe?

This is also assuming that Hitler's death doesn't set in motion a list of events that result in a worse outcome than what we have.
As I mentioned, Hitler's oration helped create a lot of public support for the Nazis. Without him, they may not have gotten this. Yes, they still could have, but IMO they would be less likely to, and that's enough of a reason to kill baby Hitler lacking a significant potential harm.
"I am not a Marxist." -Karl Marx

User avatar
Red
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 2374
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:59 pm
Location: The United Continents of Earth

Post by Red » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:41 pm

EquALLity wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:09 pm
I agree that you don't know, but you can say that about anything. Just because you don't know something doesn't mean you cannot make an educated guess. Just because we don't know the outcome of something doesn't mean we should treat every outcome as equally likely.
I'm not saying that they are equally likely. And how educated of a guess can you make? There are countless factors that play into it. From single person taking a misstep to the President signing a seemingly inconsequential bill, you'd have to know every single factor, because even if you leave just one out, your educated guess may just be rendered worthless.
EquALLity wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:09 pm
As I mentioned, the reason why I think it would likely be better if the Holocaust didn't happen is because very few things can be as bad as the Holocaust.
Well, I'm actually reading Pinker's The Better Angels of Our Nature and I'm starting to get to the part where he talks about how murders by people have caused more deaths than the government genocides.

And again, preventing the Holocaust sounds like a great idea, but history has been fairly steady ever since the war. You can either advance humanity 10 fold, or allow for its extinction.
EquALLity wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:09 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're saying that we shouldn't try to stop the Holocaust if we can, because we don't know if keeping it would be worse than stopping it. That's like saying that I shouldn't try to look for my dog if she gets lost, because we don't know if finding her would make me happier. We don't know, but we can make an educated guess.
This is telling me that you think without a doubt the lack of a Holocaust would be positive. Don't get me wrong; the Holocaust was terrible. But in your example, of course, finding your dog would make you happier. (Assuming) You love your dog, it's almost guaranteed that you'd be happier. The same can't be said about the Holocaust, which is on a much larger scale and has almost impossibly predictable outcomes.
EquALLity wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:09 pm
Such as?

And it matters because?
You said that it's hard to rival the terriblenessessess of what Hitler done do, so here's a list of 5 people cause I don't feel like making a longer one.
-Stalin
-Mao
-Pol Pot
ok I cant think of anymore
EquALLity wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:09 pm
The Holocaust happening didn't stop multiple other genocides from happening after, such as the genocide happening currently in Myanmar of the Rohingya.
I was just using 9/11 as an example. When was the last time we saw a purposeful genocide that bad?

Also, we're making sure to keep fuckers from becoming dictators more ever since then AFAIK.
EquALLity wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:09 pm
Because as I mentioned, most things aren't as bad as the Holocaust.
AGAIN, how can you know if there aren't any negative repercussions?
VOTE

Red For President
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz For Vice President

2056

User avatar
PsYcHo
Master of the Forum
Posts: 1097
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:24 pm
Religion: None (Atheist)
Diet: Pescetarian

Post by PsYcHo » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:12 am

EquALLity wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:09 pm
There have been much worse than Hitler.
Such as?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes

EquALLity wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:09 pm
And it matters because?
reduction of harm
Alcohol may have been a factor.

Taxation is theft.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests