Black Vegans/Vegan Feminists vs. Just Being Vegan?

[ThatNerdyScienceGirl]

I have noticed this a lot, espessially in social justice-esque groups, where they like to take two things that have almost nothing in common, and combine them. Yeah, I know it is weird talking about this on VeganAtheist, but the same thing applies.

Yes, I can kinda understand why being Atheist and trying to be moral can coincide with being moral to non-human animals, thus veganism. Sure, why not. But then we have stuff like Gaymers, which are just a group of homosexual gamers, or Black Vegans, who are a group of vegans who's only other connecting factor is their skin color. Why!?

I often see people get so upset when people question these groups existence, but it makes no sense to me. It's unnecessarily exclusionary, and doesn't bring anything new to the conversation. I once saw a group called "what black vegans eat" and it confused me as well, I follow many black vegan youtubers, and what they eat is usually no different than what Asian vegans eat, or Latina vegans eat, or white vegans eat. Vegans all tend to eat the same foods:

Banana's, Salads, Chick-Peas, Boca, Gardein, TVP, Soy, Almond Milk, Pasta, Oreos, Etc. I never see any huge difference besides what is made, for example Vegan Corner often focuses more on Italian foods, and Cheap Lazy Vegan might focus more on some Asian-style cuisine, like Sushi Burritos. But aside from some minor things like that, it's usually the same as all other vegans, such as in the cases of Honest Vegan, or Brown Vegan.

I know many usually young white Social Justice proponents always tell me that it is somehow magically harder for people who are not white to become vegan, but they never explain why without sounding extremely racist. "black people often are poor, therefore they cannot afford/have access to vegan options" as if 1. Vegan items can't be found in conveinent stores/gas stations and 2. as if meat is not expensive.

Gaymers are another group, as if playing Mario and being Queer has anything to do with each other... playing Captain Falcon on SSB on the other hand... (joke, because captain Falcon has the booty). But why would I, as a bisexual woman, give a flying care if other people who like The Legend Of Zelda also like dick? Unless I am searching for a mate, and I already am hitched. Is Gaymer more like Netflix and Chill?

Am I wrong for thinking that connecting two points like Gamer and Homosexual or Vegan and "Colored" is just dumb? Being gay, or being non-white doesn't automatically mean you're going to like each other, so why put yourself in a circlejerk like that?

[brimstoneSalad]

Yeah, I know it is weird talking about this on VeganAtheist, but the same thing applies.

Well, this isn't so much intersectional as a targeted demographic, which I think is different.

It's important that there are Christian Vegans too, Veganism doesn't necessitate atheism, and Atheists who don't care about morality don't have to be vegan (although I would argue, as you mentioned, that Atheists who care about morality should be vegan, since there's no rational reason to exclude non-humans from moral consideration).

It's important to reach people with the kind of messages they'll accept, and the secular message may be very different from the religious one.

Black Vegans, who are a group of vegans who's only other connecting factor is their skin color. Why!?

I suppose it makes sense in terms of creating the appearance of veganism being normal for 'black' people too. Most people aren't so much subject to argument as they are images.
If a black person knows of no visible black vegans, that person may have a harder time imagining his or herself as vegan; seeing it as a "white" thing, which could be a challenge to identity.

I don't necessarily think those kinds of racial attitudes are good, or that rejecting something because it seems too "white" is rational, but the world is as it is and IF this is a significant psychological inhibition to veganism, it makes sense to create more visibility for black vegans.

In that case, I would be really interested in seeing hard data to back that up.
Unlike secular vegan groups, where the premises of discussion are secular philosophical arguments, there is no self evident reason black vegans need their own group, so it's a question of empirical evidence for its efficacy.

That said, I would admit that a more useful name for this forum might be along the lines of rational/secular vegan, rather than "atheist" which might put off some otherwise secular deists or weak theists from joining. That's a minor issue, though, and the group is clearly open to all for discussion and debate.

I know many usually young white Social Justice proponents always tell me that it is somehow magically harder for people who are not white to become vegan, but they never explain why without sounding extremely racist. "black people often are poor, therefore they cannot afford/have access to vegan options" as if 1. Vegan items can't be found in conveinent stores/gas stations and 2. as if meat is not expensive.

Unfortunately, it's much worse and more irrational than that. It's not that minorities can't afford it, it's that if veganism is seen as too "white" many will choose not to, due to obsession over racial roles.
There's a serious problem of high achieving black students in schools being criticized by their peers for "acting white" when they study and make good grades, and use proper English. The same kind of attitudes can apply to vegan outreach.

This is a social attitude that needs to be overturned, but lacking that it may be easier to just go along with it for outreach purposes until it is (if it ever is).
Social Justice Warriors are unlikely to ever admit this, though, or criticize it if they did.

[Robinwomb]

I know many usually young white Social Justice proponents always tell me that it is somehow magically harder for people who are not white to become vegan, but they never explain why without sounding extremely racist. "black people often are poor, therefore they cannot afford/have access to vegan options" as if 1. Vegan items can't be found in conveinent stores/gas stations and 2. as if meat is not expensive.

As far the stereotype of the "poor black person", there is actually some truth that racism still widely exists, and it is harder for black people to obtain decent jobs than white people, or to rent from property owners for example. Demographically speaking, in many poor areas of larger cities and smaller towns etc, there is what is called a food desert. I happen to actually live in the midst of one, or did, where the nearest grocery store is at least five miles away (though after years of hard work my neighborhood now has a Whole Foods Coop that just opened today and is a HUGE deal). A gas station finally came around too after years of not having one nearby. For someone with readily available transportation (car, bus, etc) this is no big deal, but when transportation is limited, and maybe you have kids to care for or health problems/disability or live in a neighborhood where daily violence exists, it becomes very limiting when transportation is not available. I bike a lot when the weather permits but that too takes time and preparation and at least fair health. Decent food access really is an issue for much of the world and in the U.S. and other more developed country it is more of an issue for people who are disabled or extremely poor or face discrimination in prime housing areas, something that is a reality for many black people, regardless of their education status. I once visited an area of South Texas (thousands of miles from home) where even the grocery stores had almost nothing I could find vegan to eat. I am talking about oats, dried or canned beans, fresh produce, even plain peanut butter. None of that was there. It was all processed convenience foods loaded with unwanted ingredients. The grocery stores were more like huge convenience gas stations, and stuff like almond milk, vegan mayo, tofu, was unheard of. I am not kidding. I had to travel to the next city to find even the most basic food to get me through a week. There were not even any farmers markets or vegetable stands around, though when I did find access to produce it was much higher quality than what you can get where I live in winter. The nearest gas station did have sunflower seeds, peanut butter, and orange juice so at least there was something.

Groups such as those with disabilities, those who are gay or transgendered, people of other races besides white, mentally ill, and other specific groups do face barriers that many of us take for granted. If specific subgroups of people come together to show that veganism is an important issue even among the other issues they face or find important as social causes, I think this is very positive. In fact when I first went vegan I embraced every perspective I could find on the subject of veganism and the perspective offered by people of different beliefs, values, and cultures than my own. I read "Sistah Vegan: Black Female Vegans Speak on Food, Identity, Health, and Society" by Breeze Harper, and "The Sexual Politics of Meat: A Feminist-vegetarian Critical Theory" by Carol Adams, and even "Dominion: The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy" by Matthew Scully to see how a Christian would argue the cause of veganism with so many contradictions in the bible.

Many omnivores will claim that vegans put animal rights over human rights in importance, but fail to see that the two are vitally linked. Social groups such as those mentioned above often bridge that gap and work to break that myth.

[garrethdsouza]

http://aphro-ism.com/2015/08/19/weareallvegans-that-awkward-moment-when-the-vegan-society-shared-100-black-vegans/

[ThatNerdyScienceGirl]

Demographically speaking, in many poor areas of larger cities and smaller towns etc, there is what is called a food desert. I happen to actually live in the midst of one, or did, where the nearest grocery store is at least five miles away (though after years of hard work my neighborhood now has a Whole Foods Coop that just opened today and is a HUGE deal).

The issue I have with the Food Deserts argument is that I have lived in at least three of them in the past 10 years, and live in one now, and studies them whenever I hear of one existing, and 9 times out of 10 it either:

1. Isn't a food desert despite being labeled as one, due to the existence of grocery stores in the area

2. Ignores the existence of Asian and Hispanic grocery stores, even supermarkets and farmers markets

3. Ignores that "convenient stores" such as the 99 cent store, Dollar General, Dollar Tree, and Family Dollar contain tons of healthy foods, and you don't need frozen or fresh vegetables to be healthy, canned works just as well.

Sure, I lived in places where the closest Walmart was 3-4 miles away, but I had Family Dollar, Dollar General, and Hispanic/Asian marts/supermarkets within a mile or two from my house. Didn't stop us from being labeled a food desert though. I am sure not all food deserts are like this, but almost all of the ones I have heard about that are not in an actual desert, moutain area, or deserted plain, follow this path.

I once visited an area of South Texas (thousands of miles from home) where even the grocery stores had almost nothing I could find vegan to eat. I am talking about oats, dried or canned beans, fresh produce, even plain peanut butter. None of that was there. It was all processed convenience foods loaded with unwanted ingredients. The grocery stores were more like huge convenience gas stations, and stuff like almond milk, vegan mayo, tofu, was unheard of.

That's odd, because most larger gas stations I have visited have peanut butter and canned beans. Also, nobody needs fresh produce to be healthy, I wish that myth would die out.

Vegans also do not need Vegan mayo, Almond Milk, or Tofu to survive...

Groups such as those with disabilities, those who are gay or transgendered, people of other races besides white, mentally ill, and other specific groups do face barriers that many of us take for granted. If specific subgroups of people come together to show that veganism is an important issue even among the other issues they face or find important as social causes, I think this is very positive.

I think Diversity is positive as well, but like I said, I would not suddenly want to join a group just because they are full of bisexuals like me. I am not saying this should not exist, I am just confused as to why they do.

Unfortunately, it's much worse and more irrational than that. It's not that minorities can't afford it, it's that if veganism is seen as too "white" many will choose not to, due to obsession over racial roles.
There's a serious problem of high achieving black students in schools being criticized by their peers for "acting white" when they study and make good grades, and use proper English. The same kind of attitudes can apply to vegan outreach.

I understand that, my fiance always jokes that I act too white when I say something like "Beef causes cancer," and I understand that Veganism is seen as too white, it's the same issue I see with Veganism being seen as too feminine, so if you are a male vegan, you are often ridiculed to hell and back for it. It's not OK, but society is a bitch like that.

I don't necessarily think those kinds of racial attitudes are good, or that rejecting something because it seems too "white" is rational, but the world is as it is and IF this is a significant psychological inhibition to veganism, it makes sense to create more visibility for black vegans.

In that case, I would be really interested in seeing hard data to back that up.
Unlike secular vegan groups, where the premises of discussion are secular philosophical arguments, there is no self evident reason black vegans need their own group, so it's a question of empirical evidence for its efficacy.

Or feminist vegans, or homosexual gamers, as this was not just about black vegans as well.

I was actually kind of sad when I opened up the replies and the only responses were of the "black vegan" portion of what I said, and not any other group that I said.

[brimstoneSalad]

I was actually kind of sad when I opened up the replies and the only responses were of the "black vegan" portion of what I said, and not any other group that I said.

I don't think I'd really have anything to say about gamer culture, so I'll take your word for it on that because you probably have more experience.

Somebody else may come by with thoughts on that.

The same comments as before apply to feminists: If they're irrational enough to only accept Feminist arguments for veganism, and won't go vegan unless they see it as something feminists do, I guess it may be useful. But this may also be indicative of an underlying condition that is keeping them from considering what others have to say who are feminists, and that's problematic in itself.

There's something to be said for meeting people where they are, but it would be better if that wasn't necessary and anybody and everybody would be willing to consider rational arguments regardless of the source.

[ThatNerdyScienceGirl]

I once visited an area of South Texas (thousands of miles from home) where even the grocery stores had almost nothing I could find vegan to eat. I am talking about oats, dried or canned beans, fresh produce, even plain peanut butter. None of that was there. It was all processed convenience foods loaded with unwanted ingredients. The grocery stores were more like huge convenience gas stations, and stuff like almond milk, vegan mayo, tofu, was unheard of.

That's odd, because most larger gas stations I have visited have peanut butter and canned beans. Also, nobody needs fresh produce to be healthy, I wish that myth would die out.

Vegans also do not need Vegan mayo, Almond Milk, or Tofu to survive...

I also wanted to expand on this point a little more, as I actually wrote a whole post awhile back about vegan options at gas stations: http://thatnerdysciencegirl.com/2016/01 ... s-station/

I doubt that there is anybody on planet earth that is getting their nutritional needs from a gas station, so I'll just push that argument to the side. But the idea that there are food marts out there that don't even stock peanut butter and beans? I have a hard time believing. I shop at numerous different stores, or at least have went in to see what they had, and even the smallest shops I have seen have peanut butter, beans, rice, and the like.

Granted, that said, that you'd expect food deserts to line up perfectly with low population on population maps... and they do. The lower the population, the higher the likelihood of a 'food desert'. Most of south texas has a population of less than 50 people per square mile, so it makes sense for a lack of food deserts here.

[ThatNerdyScienceGirl]

I was actually kind of sad when I opened up the replies and the only responses were of the "black vegan" portion of what I said, and not any other group that I said.

I don't think I'd really have anything to say about gamer culture, so I'll take your word for it on that because you probably have more experience.

Somebody else may come by with thoughts on that.

The same comments as before apply to feminists: If they're irrational enough to only accept Feminist arguments for veganism, and won't go vegan unless they see it as something feminists do, I guess it may be useful. But this may also be indicative of an underlying condition that is keeping them from considering what others have to say who are feminists, and that's problematic in itself.

There's something to be said for meeting people where they are, but it would be better if that wasn't necessary and anybody and everybody would be willing to consider rational arguments regardless of the source.

Yeah, I can agree with that

[Robinwomb]

Demographically speaking, in many poor areas of larger cities and smaller towns etc, there is what is called a food desert. I happen to actually live in the midst of one, or did, where the nearest grocery store is at least five miles away (though after years of hard work my neighborhood now has a Whole Foods Coop that just opened today and is a HUGE deal).

The issue I have with the Food Deserts argument is that I have lived in at least three of them in the past 10 years, and live in one now, and studies them whenever I hear of one existing, and 9 times out of 10 it either:

1. Isn't a food desert despite being labeled as one, due to the existence of grocery stores in the area

2. Ignores the existence of Asian and Hispanic grocery stores, even supermarkets and farmers markets

3. Ignores that "convenient stores" such as the 99 cent store, Dollar General, Dollar Tree, and Family Dollar contain tons of healthy foods, and you don't need frozen or fresh vegetables to be healthy, canned works just as well.

Sure, I lived in places where the closest Walmart was 3-4 miles away, but I had Family Dollar, Dollar General, and Hispanic/Asian marts/supermarkets within a mile or two from my house. Didn't stop us from being labeled a food desert though. I am sure not all food deserts are like this, but almost all of the ones I have heard about that are not in an actual desert, moutain area, or deserted plain, follow this path.[/i][/b]

I am including a link to a comprehensive study done for my neighborhood detailing why it is a food dessert, the issues residents have faced, demographics, etc. I wouldn't expect anyone to read the entire report, but it explains so much better than I can the issue of the food desert. We do not have any of the stores you mention in my neighborhood, no outlets or Walmarts or dollar stores. My neighborhood does not meet any of your numbered items. Two new gas stations did finally arrive within the last year (after the report was published), but gas station food is expensive compared to grocery stores, whether one is buying canned beans and oats or candy bars and bread. No one can feed their family all week every week on what gas stations offer, vegan or not. Here is the study: http://programs.lisc.org/duluth/images/ ... _17587.pdf

I once visited an area of South Texas (thousands of miles from home) where even the grocery stores had almost nothing I could find vegan to eat. I am talking about oats, dried or canned beans, fresh produce, even plain peanut butter. None of that was there. It was all processed convenience foods loaded with unwanted ingredients. The grocery stores were more like huge convenience gas stations, and stuff like almond milk, vegan mayo, tofu, was unheard of.

That's odd, because most larger gas stations I have visited have peanut butter and canned beans. Also, nobody needs fresh produce to be healthy, I wish that myth would die out.

Vegans also do not need Vegan mayo, Almond Milk, or Tofu to survive...

The examples of vegan mayo, almond milk, and tofu were just a few foods I threw out there that many vegans take for granted as being available to them. Vegan cookbooks abound with these ingredients. Online vegan forums celebrate them. Whole foods vegan cookbooks are loaded with fresh produce in their recipes. Where does that leave those that can not afford or else do not have access to these foods? These are very real issues that people face, and minority groups less empowered by a typically patriarchal western culture tend to be more vulnerable to them. Also, when people go vegan, they are often overwhelmed by what to eat. Many people grew up in a culture of meat and dairy, and it can be a struggle to figure out how to meet their needs on a plant based diet if they are not familiar with all that is out there. Sure, one can eat canned green beans and spaghetti and fruit cocktail, but can you honestly say you would stick to this type of diet long?

Also, the only canned beans in the grocery store I referenced in south Texas were pork and beans. There was no peanut butter, but there were single serve packets of crackers and peanut butter trays in them. I don't recall what the ingredients were, but the crackers were not vegan.

I was actually kind of sad when I opened up the replies and the only responses were of the "black vegan" portion of what I said, and not any other group that I said.

I did briefly mention some other groups but chose to focus on only a few groups/issues since I had limited time on the internet this morning. I had never heard of gamers. I focused on the food desert issue as just one small example of many barriers faced by different groups who are also vegans. The point was not to argue about food deserts. Groups that align people with similar shared values and ideologies or struggles can be empowering to those people as a collective voice. Often however, they exclude the principles that vegans also find important and relevant to the group's ideology or whatever, so I can totally understand why there would be a desire for a vegan feminist group, or a vegan bisexual group etc. As well as a vegan atheist group, there are vegan Christian groups, and on and on.

[Cirion Spellbinder]

It's important that there are Christian Vegans too

Tell me if I understand this correctly, as I am kind of confused:

If we want to spread veganism effectively, it is necessary for vegan theists to exist so that they can spread veganism to fellow theists. If we want to have vegan theists, then we should only dismantle the religious views of theists if they conflict with rational consequential morality. Otherwise, we would be hindering vegan activism by preventing it from reaching theists, who make up a vast majority of the population. Then atheist advocacy (when unnecessary) would be immoral.

Does that mean you think The Vegan Atheist should stop making atheism videos? Is there something I'm missing?