organic worth it?

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Twizelby
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organic worth it?

Post by Twizelby »

First let me start by saying that this topic ignites passions and vitriol like no other topic. I would like to keep this discussion within the confines of scientific evidence. So, I am pretty in favor of GMO. GASP! I realize that there is a gene which is contributing to colony collapse, (glysophate I think) this is a concern for me and I really think that that specific gene needs to be under closer scrutiny if not gotten rid of. That being said my views on GMO are summed up by Dusty Smith https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulq0NW1sTcI. So what do you think? Note: he is a bit of a turd when talking about it, so don't take it personally.
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Volenta
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Re: organic worth it?

Post by Volenta »

I always have been skeptical towards the claims that GMO is bad. Didn't know there aren't any scientific articles showing GMO is bad though. It's just about scaring people somehow. It also would be a generalization, since different genes are being modified in different plants, resulting in different results. I always find it funny to see people being against GMO and not even knowing what it really means.
Twizelby
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Re: organic worth it?

Post by Twizelby »

okay a bit deeper into this for volenta. I think most ethical vegans would also consider themselves environmentalists. That being said, does it make sense to buy organic solely on the fear of colony collapse? Should we boycott in support of getting rid of that single gene? If you don't believe that gene is causing most of the harm I would love to see the evidence. I realize that there are other factors but that seems to be a major problem.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: organic worth it?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

I'm in favor of open source GMO; against GMO patents. For me, it is a political issue, and one of intellectual property, and the consequences of abusing that system.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: organic worth it?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Twizelby wrote:If you don't believe that gene is causing most of the harm I would love to see the evidence. I realize that there are other factors but that seems to be a major problem.
Do you have a good source you can reference on this?

Last time I checked, the cause was unknown, and people were just grasping at straws.
Twizelby
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Re: organic worth it?

Post by Twizelby »

Sorry my bad I was under a different impression that it was a gene but it's the neonicotinoid pesticide that I was thinking of so not GMO but certainly used on GMO crops and I don't think it's used on organics. http://www.wired.com/2012/03/neonicotin ... -collapse/

I have seen others out of independent university studies but I didn't save them.

So now I suppose the question is... is organic pesticide worse or better than the neonicotinoid pesticide used on GMO. I know that the big complaint for organic pesticide is that it is more likely to become runoff and damage the wider ecosystem but is that worse than contributing to CCD?
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: organic worth it?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Twizelby wrote:Sorry my bad I was under a different impression that it was a gene but it's the neonicotinoid pesticide that I was thinking of so not GMO but certainly used on GMO crops and I don't think it's used on organics. http://www.wired.com/2012/03/neonicotin ... -collapse/
Oh, but you can grow GMO crops without pesticides. Or you can just not use those kinds of pesticides, if it's harming bees.
I think the best kind of GMO are plants that produce their own pesticides in the leaves- copying natural defenses.

But, I don't think GMO has anything to do with it, does it?
So now I suppose the question is... is organic pesticide worse or better than the neonicotinoid pesticide used on GMO.
Well, not for humans. In practice, Organic crops can have a lot more pesticide on them than conventional crops, because they're using less effective 'natural' pesticides; and those amounts used are more dangerous for human consumption than the engineered ones, which are made to target pests, and be less dangerous to humans.
I know that the big complaint for organic pesticide is that it is more likely to become runoff and damage the wider ecosystem but is that worse than contributing to CCD?
Not only that, but human health. Engineered pesticides are used in minute quantities. They're usually neurotoxic for insects, which is why they are so efficient and harmless to humans (taking advantage of slight differences in brain chemistry).

I think that's the link they're drawing with bees- interference with navigation.

Maybe if we didn't take so much of their honey, they wouldn't have to work as hard collecting pollen, and their exposure levels per bee could be lower.
Just a thought. ;)
Twizelby
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Re: organic worth it?

Post by Twizelby »

Oh, but you can grow GMO crops without pesticides. Or you can just not use those kinds of pesticides,
But by boycotting GMO you would be boycotting crops that use that pesticide. Being that bees are so integral to the overall ecosystem, should we boycott GMO until they stop using that specific pesticide.
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brimstoneSalad
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Re: organic worth it?

Post by brimstoneSalad »

Twizelby wrote:
Oh, but you can grow GMO crops without pesticides. Or you can just not use those kinds of pesticides,
But by boycotting GMO you would be boycotting crops that use that pesticide. Being that bees are so integral to the overall ecosystem, should we boycott GMO until they stop using that specific pesticide.
Is there evidence that all GMOs use this pesticide, and that no non-GMOs use it?

I definitely don't think we should be eating Organic- that goes too far: their pesticide use is probably more dangerous, and they fertilize almost exclusively with animal manure, supporting animal agriculture, and manage their soil with a number of other animal products (bone meal, etc).


Anyway, I don't think we should be boycotting the pesticide at all, if it's the healthiest and most environmentally friendly thing we have.

We should leave this to the EPA.

If they determine conclusively that this pesticide is killing bees, and there's nothing that can be done to prevent it, and/or if there's another pesticide that doesn't kill bees and that is equally safe for humans, they will soon ban the use of the pesticide.

If it is only one factor, and something else could mitigate it, or other pesticides that would replace it are equally bad for the bees and/or the environment in general, or there are no other pesticides of comparable efficacy and health for humans, then they will not ban it.

Consumer pressure is not necessary here, because we have government oversight. The EPA's track record on banning things that harm the environment isn't too terrible (although slow).

If you feel the EPA is not doing its job in this regard, then contact your representative, and apply political pressure. This can be surprisingly effective.
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