What kind of pet/animal do you take care of?

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Neptual
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What kind of pet/animal do you take care of?

Post by Neptual » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:23 pm

I have a small Chihuahua named Diamond. She's a mix breed of Pomeranian, and I adopted her from a local shelter. She is EXTREMELY small, here's a picture of her
diamond.jpg
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Hopefully she doesn't get pregnant when I take to the dog park next week :/
She's beautiful...

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Post by brimstoneSalad » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:06 pm

dan1073 wrote: Hopefully she doesn't get pregnant when I take to the dog park next week :/
Can you have her spayed?

It's not good to take chances with that kind of thing.

One operation, she sleeps for a bit, and then a few days with a little pain- but thereafter you eliminate the chance of more homeless puppies being born.

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Post by Volenta » Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:30 pm

I find it amazing to see people taking care of formerly sheltered animals. I would do the same if I had the money for it. :(

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Post by brimstoneSalad » Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:50 pm

Volenta wrote:I find it amazing to see people taking care of formerly sheltered animals. I would do the same if I had the money for it. :(
The most expensive part is veterinary care, and medication to protect from parasites, which can be a couple hundred dollars a year.

Of course, if you want to make a difference in animal suffering, you also have to feed them vegan (which is easy with dogs, and healthier and cheaper than dog food- not so easy with cats), and that involves some cooking (e.g. beans, veggies, a little grain).
For a cat, you might have to find freegan meat (which means going to a butcher and begging for free waste scraps that they'd throw away, or dumpster diving) -- there's vegan cat food out there, but there's some skepticism about the quality and for male cats, there can be urinary issues on a completely meat free diet (you have to be vigilant and pH test the urine).

All in all, you'd be in for almost $400 a year for a small dog.

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Post by Neptual » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:17 pm

brimstoneSalad wrote:
dan1073 wrote: Hopefully she doesn't get pregnant when I take to the dog park next week :/
Can you have her spayed?

It's not good to take chances with that kind of thing.

One operation, she sleeps for a bit, and then a few days with a little pain- but thereafter you eliminate the chance of more homeless puppies being born.
I'm not into the twisting of tubes with her or any dog that I've taken care of for that matter. Plus I plan on taking care of her for the rest of her life. She's a small dog and I really wouldn't trust her with anyone else but myself. In the case where she does get pregnant it looks like I'll have a handful of pups to take care of :D
She's beautiful...

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Post by brimstoneSalad » Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:14 pm

dan1073 wrote: I'm not into the twisting of tubes with her or any dog that I've taken care of for that matter.
Why not?

It's the single thing that has reduced stray animal populations more than anything else.
dan1073 wrote: Plus I plan on taking care of her for the rest of her life.
So did the owners of every stray animal, at once point.

Plans change.
Accidents happen.
Sometimes dogs get out and run off. Are you infallible?
Sometimes owners just drop dead. Are you immortal? No. Do you have contingencies and a trust set up to take care of this dog in case something happens?

That's not a reasonable defense for not spaying, because it's the same thing everybody who owned an un-spayed stray said before they became strays and bred.

One becomes two, two become four, four become eight, eight become sixteen- and so on.

It's why every good shelter requires people to sign a document promising to spay or neuter the animal after adoption.
It's a document you probably signed too, when you adopted her.

dan1073 wrote: She's a small dog and I really wouldn't trust her with anyone else but myself.
That's fine, but that has no bearing on what may happen in reality. If you're dead, you won't be trusting anybody with her- she'll either die of starvation, or she'll get out, eat garbage, and have 1-3 puppies (maybe more) every year until she dies of starvation or gets hit by a car. And the same will happen to all of her puppies.
dan1073 wrote: In the case where she does get pregnant it looks like I'll have a handful of pups to take care of :D
That's not something to smile about...

So she has three puppies. Now you have to dedicate resources to taking care of those puppies for their entire lives. Are they all female? If not, you have them mating with each other and having more puppies every year, and there's nothing you can do about it.

They'll double in population every year. You'll keep feeding them, and letting them reproduce unchecked.
How much room do you have to keep them all?

And worse yet, every single puppy born is one that you could have adopted instead and saved from death.

Every puppy she has because you let her, and every puppy those puppies have, is basically another puppy you sentenced to death instead of adopting from a shelter.

Please neuter and spay your pets. It's not cruel to do so- it's irresponsible not to.

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Post by Neptual » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:29 pm

brimstoneSalad wrote:
Why not?

It's the single thing that has reduced stray animal populations more than anything else.
I don't like spaying the dogs I take care of because I feel that it would be better when I do give the dog to happy family that if and when they choose they can decide whether they want more dogs or not. I do my best to give dogs to people I know closely so that I can ensure that they're not just breeding her to sell her pups
brimstoneSalad wrote: So did the owners of every stray animal, at once point.

Plans change.
Accidents happen.
Sometimes dogs get out and run off. Are you infallible?
Sometimes owners just drop dead. Are you immortal? No. Do you have contingencies and a trust set up to take care of this dog in case something happens?

That's not a reasonable defense for not spaying, because it's the same thing everybody who owned an un-spayed stray said before they became strays and bred.

One becomes two, two become four, four become eight, eight become sixteen- and so on.

It's why every good shelter requires people to sign a document promising to spay or neuter the animal after adoption.
It's a document you probably signed too, when you adopted her.
Yes plans do change and accidents do happen, but does that mean I should take every precaution to make sure that something "might" or "could" happen and has somewhat of a rare chance happening to heart? No. If I go on a plane I plan to land safely but there's a chance that the plane my malfunction, should I have instead choose to go on a boat? No. Risks have to be taken, and taking care of another animal always comes with the risk of the owner dying before the animal does, or the animal itself running away.
brimstoneSalad wrote: That's fine, but that has no bearing on what may happen in reality. If you're dead, you won't be trusting anybody with her- she'll either die of starvation, or she'll get out, eat garbage, and have 1-3 puppies (maybe more) every year until she dies of starvation or gets hit by a car. And the same will happen to all of her puppies.
I don't like saying the same things twice but, I don't tend to live my life off of "ifs" and "buts". The rest of your argument is based only if I end up dying. Also if I do end up dying and she does end up getting out and becoming a stray dog, I can entrust the responsibility with New York City's Animal Control. http://www.nyc.gov/html/mancb3/download ... 201.17.pdf
brimstoneSalad wrote: That's not something to smile about...

So she has three puppies. Now you have to dedicate resources to taking care of those puppies for their entire lives. Are they all female? If not, you have them mating with each other and having more puppies every year, and there's nothing you can do about it.

They'll double in population every year. You'll keep feeding them, and letting them reproduce unchecked.
How much room do you have to keep them all?

And worse yet, every single puppy born is one that you could have adopted instead and saved from death.

Every puppy she has because you let her, and every puppy those puppies have, is basically another puppy you sentenced to death instead of adopting from a shelter.

Please neuter and spay your pets. It's not cruel to do so- it's irresponsible not to.
I think that the birth of newborn puppies is something to smile about in a non-hostile environment. I have taken care of more than one different species of animals before including dogs, and I feel that I have the knowledge and financial stability to take care of those newborn pups and to prevent them from breeding with each other while also having them be socially active with their brothers/sisters.

At one point there will be a stopping point onto how many puppies are going to be born in my household. The reason I said I didn't plan on having Diamond spayed is because if she were to have puppies I would be able to take care of them without having any problems. But when the situation comes where there's a high possibility where the dogs will breed and I won't be able to take care of them all then I'll have to put a stop to it.

Also how would me allowing her to make puppies sentencing them to death? This would be a questioning possibility perhaps if I was an abusive owner.
She's beautiful...

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Post by TheVeganAtheist » Fri Jun 27, 2014 11:45 pm

I would have to brimestonsalad, i would encourage you and everyone to spay/neuter your companion animal. Shelters are already full to the brim with unwanted pets, the last thing we need is more puppies being accidentally (or purposefully) born. Whats the point of rescuing an animal from a shelter if you (and others) keep breeding more pets that end up in shelters? Its like a revolving door that never ends. We should be trying to decrease the number of pet animals born, not keep the status quo or increase numbers.
The other consideration is, the more pet animals we have, the more other animals that need to be killed in order to feed them. Why is the life of a cow/chicken/fish/pig/etc less important than the life of a cat/dog/etc? As long as we have pet animals, we have to take care of them, and make the difficult decision to kill on their behalf so that they may live, but this is one major issue with pet ownership.
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Post by brimstoneSalad » Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:34 am

dan1073 wrote: I don't like spaying the dogs I take care of because I feel that it would be better when I do give the dog to happy family that if and when they choose they can decide whether they want more dogs or not.
That's not their choice to make. It would be better that the poor dog was put down rather than given to a family who has designs on breeding her.

If they want more dogs, they can go to a shelter and rescue some more dogs. There is no reason they need to breed this one.

If they won't take her because she's spayed, then they are bad people. They don't deserve her, or any dog.

dan1073 wrote: Yes plans do change and accidents do happen, but does that mean I should take every precaution to make sure that something "might" or "could" happen and has somewhat of a rare chance happening to heart? No.
When the precaution is very easy to take, yes. When the consequences of that negative outcome are extremely bad, YES.
dan1073 wrote: If I go on a plane I plan to land safely but there's a chance that the plane my malfunction, should I have instead choose to go on a boat? No.
That's not remotely a valid comparison, and if you don't understand that, then you don't understand the problem.

It is neither difficult, very inconvenient, nor very expensive to have an animal spayed or neutered- and there's every good and moral reason to do it.
It is difficult, very inconvenient, and very expensive to take a boat instead of a plane- and there's no good reason to do it.

The risks of air travel are actually very small, and the risks of travel by boat are actually HIGHER at about 120%.
The risks of a dog breeding are much higher, and if spayed or neutered they drop to ZERO.
dan1073 wrote: Risks have to be taken, and taking care of another animal always comes with the risk of the owner dying before the animal does, or the animal itself running away.
Some risks are unavoidable. Some risks are easily avoidable, and it is irresponsible not to do so.
Which is why a responsible owner always spays and/or neuters.

It is a serious risk which is easily avoidable.

It's the same reason responsible parents put their children in car seats. While the chances of a serious accident is not very high, without a car seat the risk of serious injury or death is much higher.
dan1073 wrote: I don't like saying the same things twice but, I don't tend to live my life off of "ifs" and "buts".
Only responsible people do that. If you choose to be irresponsible, it's your choice, but please don't insult us by pretending it's a moral choice.

Refusal to spay/neuter dogs is as bad as, and possibly worse than, the anti-vaccination movement.
One of the most immoral and irresponsible trends masquerading as a matter of personal liberty and some kind of pseudo-moral sophistry.
dan1073 wrote: The rest of your argument is based only if I end up dying. Also if I do end up dying and she does end up getting out and becoming a stray dog, I can entrust the responsibility with New York City's Animal Control. http://www.nyc.gov/html/mancb3/download ... 201.17.pdf
Your faith in government notwithstanding (and misplaced), this is YOUR responsibility. Offloading it onto your municipality is avoiding that responsibility, not living up to it.

But if you want something else:

1. You are risking your dog's health by not spaying; spaying is a substantial form of prevention for a number of diseases, and on the whole a positive for the health, behavior, and well being of the animal.
http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-p ... nge-my-dog

2. It can be very important for dogs to socialize, and the act drastically increases the chance of impregnation. If you don't keep her locked away while she's in heat (and keep careful track of it), it only takes a few second for a male dog to mount her. Have you ever tried to pull two mating dogs apart?
If you're taking even the most basic precautions, you're harming her ability to socialize.
If you're not taking those precautions, then you're being incredibly irresponsible.

dan1073 wrote: I think that the birth of newborn puppies is something to smile about in a non-hostile environment.
Not when there are dogs in shelters awaiting rescue or euthanasia. Every dog born which you have to take care of is one you can not adopt.
dan1073 wrote: I have taken care of more than one different species of animals before including dogs, and I feel that I have the knowledge and financial stability to take care of those newborn pups
Then you should adopt more dogs instead, giving the animals a good home rather than letting them die. And spay/neuter them with that financial stability.
dan1073 wrote: and to prevent them from breeding with each other while also having them be socially active with their brothers/sisters.
That's a joke.
You don't have the facilities to do that. And leaving a male dog un-neutered, as horny as they get (particularly being around females), could even be cruel.

dan1073 wrote: At one point there will be a stopping point onto how many puppies are going to be born in my household.
What do you mean, a stopping point?

Once you line all of your walls with tiny kennels and have no more space, you'll do what? Spay and neuter them all at once? Or just pass the buck by trying to offload them onto somebody else, who will then carry on the legacy of irresponsible pet ownership? Or abandon them to a shelter to be euthanised?

It's best to spay and neuter as early as possible, after three months but before they get older. Doing otherwise is introducing unnecessary risk.
dan1073 wrote: The reason I said I didn't plan on having Diamond spayed is because if she were to have puppies I would be able to take care of them without having any problems.
That's a bullshit reason.

If you want more dogs, then rescue them, don't breed them.
Either way, take responsible measures.

The ability to deal with the negative consequences of irresponsibility doesn't excuse the irresponsibility.
dan1073 wrote: But when the situation comes where there's a high possibility where the dogs will breed and I won't be able to take care of them all then I'll have to put a stop to it.
Like I said, how?

You do realize it's dangerous to wait too long? The older the dog is, the more dangerous it becomes.
Spaying early prevents health and behavioral problems, and drastically reduces the (relatively minor) associated risks.
dan1073 wrote: Also how would me allowing her to make puppies sentencing them to death? This would be a questioning possibility perhaps if I was an abusive owner.
It sentences the puppies in shelters that you could have adopted but didn't, because you irresponsibly bred your dog, to death.
One dog is born, another has to die. That's the way of things. There are only so many homes, and so many resources- and there's a surplus of shelter dogs being killed because of that limit.

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Post by brimstoneSalad » Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:50 am

TheVeganAtheist wrote:Shelters are already full to the brim with unwanted pets, the last thing we need is more puppies being accidentally (or purposefully) born. Whats the point of rescuing an animal from a shelter if you (and others) keep breeding more pets that end up in shelters?
Yep. Once all of the shelters are empty, and people snatch up any dog they get right away due to higher demand than supply, THEN we can have the conversation about the ethics of breeding. Now, it's not even a question worth asking.

I look forward to the day when crowded shelters are a thing of the past, we can argue about whether dogs should be bred to keep up with demand or not.
TheVeganAtheist wrote:The other consideration is, the more pet animals we have, the more other animals that need to be killed in order to feed them.
This may be true for cats to some extent. But to be fair, dogs can easily eat vegan and be perfectly healthy and happy (healthier, like humans, dogs are omnivores and they benefit from a plant based diet).

I have a hard time considering anybody vegan if they feed their dogs meat- it's a lose-lose situation, which harms the dog, and the animals they're eating at the same time. It's animal abuse.

Cats are a more complicated matter, since they're obligate carnivores, need a number of amino acids not present in plants, and may have trouble digesting carbohydrates. I would hope any vegan owner could get freegan meat to feed them, though.

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