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NonZeroSum
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Re: Transcripts for sourcing.

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Part 3 - An Interesting Assortment of Subjects Best Offensive Vegan Arguments (logical and pragmatic): 1:05:01


so I think it's time to actually get on board with the subject of this discussion veganism all right so um I start off with just simply uh what would you say would be the best response of not even not response actually the best direct offensive like on the offense argument for veganism if you were to go up to someone and argue for veganism to get them to be convinced what would you argue so we'll start off with Richard and then we move to a circuit before you ask him can I just clarify your question are you are you asking what is pragmatically the most effective or what is logically the most clear case are you talking what's most likely to commit someone or lodge okay just curious that's a really good yeah this really good distinction um yeah I didn't mean to cut into I just wanted to know it's great I'm glad you did um yeah let's opt for the logical one first and then if if it's not one thing to talk yeah what's the best logical offensive augment not a soldier response to say for instance some red and meat hog like anise you don't even need to ask me back what everyone knows my answer that question but yeah I like to know Richards particular logical approach to an offensive argument rather than a defensive argument all right well I'd say animal rights extends from human rights if you believe it's wrong to kill a human being for no justifiable reason then you should also find it like wrong to kill an animal for no unjustifiable reason because really our sense of morale and what gives being moral value stems from empathy and since yeah you know you have empathy for another human being where you can put yourself in their shoes where you know you wouldn't want to get stabbed to death you can also do the same thing for an animal since they're also sentient so that would be the best logical argument for veganism that I could come up with um as for pragmatics I guess it would really depend on the person I'm arguing against or like yeah say it like I'd say most people would really get stopped in their tracks and think about it if you ask them so why do you think it's okay to kill a Nita cow but not a dog or a cat like so I think that would work on the most people but yeah like I mean it's just gonna really depend on the person you're talking to you i I really agree with that there might still be this doesn't contradict what Richards saying there might still be obviously a general argument that's that's like you could say is the most pragmatically effective on average but obviously what's gonna be the most effective will vary per person there might just still be like statistically does the best or something but it might also just end on who's delivering it cuz delivery style and like argument type I don't know people will kind of base it a bit on who you are yeah so just answer your questions so logically obviously you know I think the best argument is name the trade are you like that because I don't like to get into all this like like nature of morality meta ethics all this kind of stuff I like to not have to bootstrap vegan ethics from the ground up I like to just go from the beliefs they already hold it's like okay well that's kind of like Richard was saying it's just like well I mean you don't want to be stabbed you want laws in place preventing that how are you going to say if someone else says they want the same for animals how are you going to reject that without using a justification that would reject it for you in certain contexts and you know Co can't there is an actually way to do that so it just produces like crazy contradictions and you just I mean so logically that's the strongest um in terms of pragmatically I mean obviously I agree it's it's like unique to the person um generally speaking oh I don't know I mean it's got to be like some some combination of like kind of making them empathize with animals and making them understand how easy veganism is yeah is if you read books like like just me for dollar what was taking out can I have that right yeah yeah that and the tongue study um great books for people who want to introduce themselves to the economics and the health benefits of veganism but go on did you see on Wednesday it's pretty much all I have to say when like the reason that I spend time clearing up the logic is you know it's like I've got a bunch of reasons but it's useful to understand where you're located in the conversation and to understand why things morally don't make sense even if you're not gonna just spew the raw logical format someone you can get like okay they're saying like intelligence they don't want to be killed if they're less intelligent and that kind of just gives you a whole bunch of options of how to structure that you're like you could talk about how intelligent their dog is you could like you could talk about people are mentally challenged and there are ways to do that that aren't as abrasive as I am like I I be I'm forceful cuz I'm doing debates but obviously when you're talking like talking to individuals you need to have people skills and that's probably actually more important than maybe not more important but it's it's massively important and maybe sometimes more important than your arguments okay so how should we advocate for veganism to promote rational ethical thought so how do we argue for veganism and at the same time teach people how to actually think morally and reject the subjectivist objectives but radical subjectivist and relativists and nihilistic arguments how do you get those people convinced that those ants desirable moral frameworks I need to ask you the same question again which is do you mean like pragmatically what's the most effect that are like logic what's great in this case how do you get them to abandon nihilism I mean I think you kind of just have to like maybe just like hell look them in the eye and be like you are you really telling me you give a shit if I stab you like that's kind of what comes to my mind yeah but you did I hey I'd literally say the same thing I mean all these people who say they believe in nihilism they're kind of were like full of shit obviously they don't want to live in a world where like everyone does everything without any like care or any feeling of responsibility like they're not really nihilist they just don't want to take responsibility for their own actions yeah that says I bury like where he basically of films and do not moral values like an absolute spastic totally I would also make one little comment about nihilism which is I think like again like in terms of ontology I think we're probably all nihilists I don't think that any of us think that there is a moral dimension to existence but I think that in terms of like oh no more like like normative speaking like how should society be structured there's no fucking way that I'm an island better than islets and I know you guys aren't either I don't think any thinking person can be so I would just draw that distinction because some philosophically minded people in the chat or whatever who watch this are gonna be like didn't he say earlier that morality doesn't exist how is he not a nihilist well it's like obviously like ontology I am in that list but I just I don't actually think that nihilism is the kind of morality that I want society to be based on it I don't yeah we are constructing a morality to benefit us not to just impose some kind of like nature state or something on people you know yeah pretty interesting stuff but yeah I think it's time to move on to antinatalism guys and their name let's start with Richards yeah what is your take on needle ISM and why D what he hold other Ian Richard argue for oneself okay well this is like I'm antinatalism to a point like I mean I don't think and should not have kids and like just completely wipe out the human race I think the right to have children should be restricted like sort of like they do in China where you have to have a limit on the amount of children you can have and who can have children like really in the most ideal world I'd say everyone should be sterilized at birth and then like say when you're of age and you want to have children and you're with somebody you'd have to approve be approved for some kind of license to have a child like that would be the ideal Society act like I could see it's like I think something ridiculous like 70% of pregnancies are unplanned it's just crazy it's just something me yeah and there's just too many fucking morons having children like there's so many broken homes like if people had to go through that like all the paperwork to have children and they had to make like a conscious decision to have children I think society would just be a hell of a lot better and population control would also be a huge benefit too because like nine billion people in the next 20 years fucking crazy yeah just before you guys continue would be should all the natal ism or antinatalism be an extension to ethical veganism if so why but yeah going Nozick do your thing um well I mean I'll let Richard keep his flow if you want to yeah question yeah well no I'd separate it from veganism like veganism is its own thing I wouldn't want to attach it to Nadel ism or antinatalism or I don't know any other kind of political ideology I just because you're going to have people who disagree with that like I mean within the own within the vegan movement there are pronatalist vegans like what's-her-name Swayze a natural vegan and you know there are people like me and even durianrider he's antinatalism like yeah vicars like there's disagreement between you know vegans so I don't see why that should be become a part of veganism like natal is amore antinatalism I see animal rights is a completely distinct topic okay I'm at the way to take a vacation animal rods yeah I'm just gonna take them in reverse order so starting with whether it follows from veganism um okay so I think what Richard just said I mean like I don't think you're gonna get to see us argue I agree with pretty much everything there but it's the same problem as intersectionality right which is the more propositions you add to veganism the less people who are going to accept it though it's like the more that you bulk on there the harder it is to get across now having said that it's logically impossible to be a vegan and not contradict yourself and like and hold certain positions right so like if you're a vegan it's it's logically impossible to be consistent and reject human rights so there are positions that follow necessarily from veganism but I'm not I don't know that like there's no way that like hard antinatalism calls from veganism and there's I don't think there's any way that hard Natal ism does either like I am I guess that kind of takes me to what I feel about that whole topic like okay well I think hard antinatalism obviously the logical conclusion of that is voluntary extinction so I'm I'm not for that I think that you know there's gonna be more well-being if humans exist and learn to exist in a great way we can bring so much good to the universe to ourselves I don't think that the suffering of life actually means that we should just give up on it and extinguish ourselves or something so I'm not for hard antinatalism but the opposite position which is just like intense natal ism is just what you want to like over populate the earth and just destroy everything so I'm just for a you know maintaining like reasonable sustainable birth rates I mean that's kind of what I feel like and um when it comes to implementing it I mean that's one area where I might like be a bit different than Richard because you're more you're kind of comfortable with some things that are a little too like I want to say at Orion for me I don't know you can come back on that but like I have big trouble thinking that it's okay to like sterilize people against their even though I don't want a lot of those people that babies when you talk about government incentives and like setting up incentive structures to like encourage the right people to have kids and the wrong people not to a hundred percent them for that but I just I don't know about I don't want to like force people to not have kids I just want to strongly incentivize people to have an appropriate amount of children I'm so like tax incentives things like that I haven't really thought like pragmatically about exactly what kind of incentives but nothing strikes me as like fundamentally wrong about a tax incentive okay yeah that's what they yeah yeah like I would never support a policy that's like we're gonna forcibly abort you I know you don't support anything that authoritarian but there's stuff that's a bit kind of like in the middle like forcible sterilization at birth that I'm just like I don't know if I can get on that train I also know that's not an argument against it so I don't know really I'd have definitely like I can see how having forced sterilization could potentially be a problem I mean you could almost do like like the government would possibly be in a position to do like ethnic cleansing where you just don't allow certain groups to have any children so like there can be issues with that like you could get into eugenics where the government will just not let people like below certain IQ level have children like I don't know you could go something down some dark avenues like I think there are some valid arguments against it but um I don't know if you just put some pretty hard laws in place like that prevent certain things like that from happening I think it's fine I'd still be in favor of that okay yeah so the picture that I'm getting here is that like as far as I can tell we generally agree neither of us are for like hard Nadel ism or hard antinatalism cool correct yeah and then it sounds like pragmatically in terms of actual strategy there might be like some disagreements there I think generally we could like talk about reasonable policies and reach a lot of common ground beautiful so time to shift gears one on two really the the politics of changing minds so like that's why you're talking about yeah effective activism but with regards to history and I know you may Richard and Martin have appeared on like say for instance the drunken peasants so they're lots of fun to deal with the biggest group of dogmatic twice I've ever come across and literally its swan team yeah the ideals of TJ who just doesn't understand a lick of ethics and basically uses that ignorance as an argument against people who are presenting arguments for ethics so it's almost like a methodological doublethink so it kind of has great liquid with me he just seems to appeal to personal preference yeah like he's like yeah well you could say that but I just don't want to live that way like that yeah that's his argument yeah well and you know I'm working on a response to him about the stupid I hate cyclist video he did it's kind of relevant to what we're talking to you but yeah the guy has a tendency to appeal to personal preference and just ignore all evidence and it's to the extent where he'll actually say that we shouldn't come up with a solution to the problems he's complaining though mmm well you mean he does he does that in the bike context oh yeah yeah yeah he's like lamps and let's not even address the problem yesterday so yes first of all he'll complain about bikes temporarily inconveniencing him like oh it's hard to get around a bike so like fuck bicycles and then when somebody tells him okay well you know a bike lane action we would get rid of that problem of you know traffic and there's actually research showing that it alleviates traffic congestion he'll say no that's that's just horseshit we shouldn't do that yeah except he takes it in a positive sense where just doesn't actually understand what he's talking about yeah like TJ he I don't know it's just like he appeals to personal bias and just yet just he just has the sense of entitlement I guess where it's like I feel this way so I should be able to do it it's change yeah he just doesn't really come up with an actual argument yeah because our good absolutely land bastard when I'm back in 2016 when I didn't know lick of philosophy I tried to present a pragmatic argument for objective morality back when I was like a robust moral realist and absolutely got destroyed but the only argument they could actually ever appeal to was oh that's just your opinion either that or just pureed hominins because I think there's not actually being an argument presented that's outside of like relativistic nihilistic opinion so and I have to say something of that like wiggle like people are so stupid with that argument it just baffles me it's like unbelievable like they think that it's actually a philosophically interesting thing to say that your subjective opinion it's like yeah it's vacuous it's yeah it's like I mean of course of course we're talking about opinion when we're talking about morality but it's also possible for opinions to be contradictory and it's positive opinions to lead to conclusions that you really don't want well the thing too is that kind of argument never gets brought up in any other fucking context yeah there's an animal rights like if we're gonna argue about pedophilia that's objective and that like really exists like you're never gonna fucking hear that so especially on the toilet room on the stand yeah like it's it's basically a special pleading like okay well in this situation morality doesn't exists all personal but when it comes to pedophilia or any other moral issue like racism oh it's a different story yeah yeah or or some of them will say oh it's still it's still opinion but like Society is like on my side with those ones it's like on the side and has been and in some places still is on the side of all sorts of horrible shit so like what are you even talking about yeah so where do you actually think in the skepta spear the skeptic community as they so dislike being called it's about the mass of being a community where do you think that this this rise in the opinions that I geared towards nihilism and radical subjectivism and relativism where did start like who do you think was the main figurehead I personally think it was between Galen Halcyon and TJ Kirk basically feeding into each other and developing this very virtuous knife you mean in the you mean in the context of veganism or just in general you means on YouTube six of ethics yes oh just ethics in general yeah in general I don't know if like I've seen a lot of TJ's videos like I mean he's really against things like racism and I don't know I I don't see him as being terribly nihilists to me like with some of his behavior I mean like his fat son of a bitch and he smoked cigarettes and he just has like an attitude like I don't give a fuck but I mean he's talked about global warming racism I know it doesn't seem like he I don't just see it being like a true nihilist yeah that's right the same way that one can to Barry to be a true nihilist although yeah do they both of them have similar inclinations towards nyla I mean is arguing ethics yeah like I mean it's just it's only when it's convenient for them and it really only gets brought up and animal rights reduction so situational nihilism yeah choose to just close off whatever totally does it good at but it's situational yeah I don't think and every as well yeah like I don't think anyone created that I just think that's what people who aren't terribly intelligent or terribly honest with themselves that's or something they do okay I've got a car actually go ahead like I am NOT a student of history so someone will probably comment with more detailed information if enough people see this video but I mean I think a lot of that comes from basically postmodern philosophy which undermines the the notion of truth and and obviously completely undermines the notion of morality like like I mean the whole the core concept as far as I can tell of post-modernism is that all knowledge structures are built on assumptions that you have to accept without actually taking in any evidence and once you I mean that that seems like especially in the moral context is like pretty damning of morality it's like well it doesn't fucking like exist how does how does it exist it's just you're making some base assumptions about what's good and someone else can assume something else I think there's still ways to argue people into particular moralities like pointing out contradictions within the ones they accept and wait to the kind of behavior they want for themselves and that in order to have it they have to kind of be consistent in their morality towards others like there's ways to argue them into it but I think that general current of nihilism in philosophy I mean like maybe it has older roots but I think post-modernism definitely like amplified it a lot and I also just want to say with people this whole like situational nihilism thing I mean I've probably said this before on this stream but I cannot say this enough times it's like never ever ever fall for the trap of when someone starts saying you know morality doesn't exist arguing for why morality exists from the ground up unless that all you need to ask in that situation are you for abolishing anti-rape laws are you for abolishing anti murder laws unless that person is actually saying that they don't hold any moral positions and they're indifferent to the abolition of those things legally then a conversation about bootstrapping morality is irrelevant it's a red herring they already bootstrap now it's about what follows from what they've bootstrapped that's it's so so vital to get that because people do that all the time especially philosophically minded people but it's actually stupidly easy to step around once you get what's happening so this guy friend ed kind of does that a little bit we're just get into a meta ethical discussion for Noah no fucking reason even though it's completely irrelevant to the friggin topic yeah yeah that was brutal you you definitely called him on that you did a great job in that debate to us pretty funny I liked and got him to admit that his and from that his statements were just like as our kids were not very good how should we like a deal with these these guys who arguing for social contract they are arguing for like a nihilistic romanticism of an artist's artistic ideal or who are like audience that's just purely relativistic approach should we completely avoid emotionally charging those arguments that are aimed towards those particular individuals or should we kind of like our arguments that it's all just about the social contract and what benefits us and there's no need for logical consistency yeah yeah yeah the very important to point out that those are contradictory moral frameworks that they they're internally inconsistent because those people don't want others to make those kind of arbitrary social contracts that exclude them so you know supporting that in a moral system when you wouldn't want to be subject to it is of course just a massive contradiction so it is I think important to undermine that kind of thinking yes yeah and like I I mentioned this in my response video to you destiny after the debate like there's pretty clear evidence that morality stems from empathy like it's not that we just arbitrarily create social contracts just entirely due to utility like we developed empathy to give us the ability to form social contracts so morality really stems from empathy not social contracts yeah so they're like skipping stepping like to get up because when when you when you actually in it like invoking social contract people tend to miss out on the contract aspect of that house the contract form that's formed by individual psychological agents you know so I'm sure at context I also want to add one thing for anyone who's like kind of stupid and thinks that Richard just contradict himself some people might say oh you just said morality comes from empathy earlier you said it comes from biology well empathy is a faculty built into us by our biology yeah exactly just for anyone who's who's maybe not getting that right there who don't actually understand that if a equals B and B equals Eve that a will say there because of people who just don't they don't get it no matter how many times it's like displayed to them they're just just stupid that yeah there's just idiots and they don't they don't understand what you're saying I get this all the time with cutting people off like there's there's people who think that I am such a dick for cutting others off and there's other people or do this like if you watch someone like stefan molyneux or staphon I'm not sure how to say it yeah that's people off like a beast and it's like people don't understand why you're cutting them off they're they think they're like oh you're talking and you're telling them not to cut you off and you're saying give me a chance to speak but yet you're cutting them off it's like that's your lack of intelligence and awareness of the topic is actually causing you not to notice that they are being evasive and they're moving off point and that's why I'm cutting them off it's not like I have some interest in just continually speaking over them it's like once they start addressing what I'm talking about I don't have any interest in setting them back on to the point you know see a stupid misunderstanding stuff big problem that I actually personally what I now I'm just fully of the position that I don't produce content for those people like I know that I'll try to make it as accessible to the masses as possible without compromising my message but I just understand that there are idiots who will not comprehend what I'm saying or why I'm doing what I'm doing and I think he has kind of you have to make a choice of do you want to appeal to the masses or do you want to appeals that neesh of like like kind of smarter people who can actually get what's up and let it trickle down to the masses maybe through those people great off-topic but just kind of dozen of stupid people and how they might misunderstand shit yeah because sometime it is necessary to interject before I start to go down a tangent that would lead them to asking you a question that isn't even remotely reflective or in cutting or Gore yeah or in category of your opinions or even not even asking a question just going off point and just talking about something not actually relevant to the conversation and I just add one correction to what you just said not sometimes it's I almost want to say usually necessary when you're talking to someone about a subject that they're not like well-versed on or we need to start just have like horribly inconsistent nonsense positions like it's unless you're talking to a smart competent honest person who's not trying to avoid your points you will probably need to butt in and reset them like multiple times especially on a topic like veganism because there needs to be a metalinguistic acceptance between two parties we need to actually understand the words that we're saying and what we meaning by the words that we are saying so that I have that I seem to cut in yeah absolutely so recent big reason no absolutely but yeah so and it also just make one little point here which is that's that's very true in a debate but I'm also not recommending that as what you should do if you're like doing Street activism or like trying to describe speak cousins or something because when you're talking to a friend your goal isn't to expose their stupidity to the portal I mean hopefully it's not or not the best friend really yeah so if you're on the street being an activist you should be practicing Street epistemology which is basically it's like the reverse-engineer people's beliefs not to like start from the start and teach them stuff but to actually enquire and get them to realize their incoherence so I I personally agree with you there I think that's probably the best thing to do on the street is kind of like Street epistemology but I also don't want to be seen as saying anything too prescriptive about how people should do street activism like there's a room for experimentation and yeah absolutely dynamics are so varied and so interesting and so dependent on your personal character that I you might just have some way that works for you that is not at all like that but I generally agree with you like you want to take the Street epistemology you know the kind of break down their opinions in reverse and try to get to the core assumptions make them see things and always from a like Socratic friendly to you know Joe's old position yeah I would agree with that yeah absolutely so do you think veganism will inevitably take over the sick atmosphere and how long would that take if that does happen I don't know it depends how long like people like TJ will live I mean so many yeah like I mean there's some like a like willfully ignorant stubborn fucking people in the skeptic community and this fucking stupid people in the skeptic community I mean barring he's an actual idiot he didn't even understand what virtue signaling was even though he heard every fucking video what he also seemed to literally not understand certain logical fallacies like basic ones yeah like just oh yeah like yeah and historic you sir to like pass a necessity it's like you don't get that that's a bad argument yeah yeah and what no bullshit he he tried to argue that you know if you eat hunted game like if you hunt animals that are invading species that's better than eat like eating lentils or something or something like you know some sort of harvested crop you know it's not a terribly unreasonable argument but the guy went online and bought farmed fucking animals and he didn't realize that like these people are just fucking stupid I based you never made a video of that Richard I thought for yeah like I'm doing bleep it's just I've been caught up with shit you know but um yeah yeah I mean especially with the like like the skeptic community but especially with the the auntie SJW aspect of the skeptic community they're just a bunch of fucking airheads like roaming millennial yeah I think we all like like I'm pretty sure we all like Sargon do you like Sargon yeah I like I like AI you yeah there's like guys in there who do girlfriend of vegan though isn't she yeah I use initially yeah I mean well like yeah this way when when people who are that opinionated will never address veganism when it comes up that to me suggests pretty strongly that they know that they can't argue against it so they wouldn't like the social backlash and minimization of their actual peak audience yeah it's like a okay I don't that that's the kind of assumption I don't totally want to make like it might be that they think that it would put off their audience that could be it but if I had to guess what the driving factor is that they don't actually know that they have an argument against it and they don't think anything yeah basically I think they're to saying something stupid and getting me on it I think they're coalescing factors yeah yeah I mean and they can always just say it doesn't interest me and like maybe it just doesn't interest you it's just like when it comes up and it's never addressed it's like that just kind of makes me think you probably don't really know how to address it but that's all answered but well I was just gonna say to like what you just asked Richard that question about when will it you know take over the Skepta spear well I mean who knows I have a feeling it'll take over the Skepta screw your it takes over society in general just cuz this is kind of the center of where debates are happening and if you look at other issues like atheism or like anti social justice stuff it's like that took over YouTube before taking over the general culture some of them still haven't taken over the general culture so I think it'll happen here first when it happens I don't know I'm not sure like I thought for a while there that we might be pushing into some like serious like these debates are really gonna get started and we're going to just Massacre this whole community to the point that like their view becomes a joke on YouTube in the same way that feminism or religion is but I think that a lot of them like either it just lost interest or they realized engaging with us was not actually very good for their credibility as like intellectuals so I don't know when that will spark up again but I'm sure that when it does take to the public stage YouTube will be one of the first places where it happens and it be a murk fest you've already seen what happens when that's when those debates start obviously so we know what's waiting in the future when enough social momentum builds up behind veganism that's right so if you reckon it would be by name d'etre oh yeah I think it will be by a name of thing a name of things rich Richard yeah I mean like I think that'll be huge I think it's a probably the most clear formulation of the ethical argument so far so I think that'll be a big part of it but it'll also just be general like vegan debates well I think it'll have a similar progression to like kind of what New Atheism had where is just like you just get some people who can argue this position very well and who just go and literally just Merc everyone until it's just clear that there is not a valid way to argue against it yeah I think it may very well follow that progression yeah we're finishing up all right so um I think there you guys are absolutely fantastic at doing like the reverse engineering coherent just approach I personally would go we feel like I found here just approach which is to start from like you know how you said it's not probably the best idea argumentatively to stop from what the most fundamental was the nature of morality and then work your way up from there I think I will take that approach to people like nihilists who actually do start from a super meta fundamental stage in order to work upwards from there so I can deconstruct it even more fundamentally so yeah they're there they're there means and there are ways to solving this to tackling this major issue but I think it's time to shift gears um I think we read along in case you didn't catch that there I think I think Richard just got a time notice so we probably had Yasmin cap capping up irreparable we definitely wrap it up so just quickly huh that's not I just mentioned that you wanted me to get off nothing quickly


New Contentions to Name the Trait: 1:41:34


did you throw the name that straight argument requires modifications or improvements so this is this is definitely inspired by your run-in with philosophical vegan no I done a dozen he's just an idiot and like the things that he suggested like I forget what they were like he said you have to include an axiom that it's arbitrary moral distinctions aren't valid no you don't that's something you reach through name the trait you try to put arbitrary though through the argument and you don't want to be discriminated against for arbitrary reasons so then you wouldn't discriminate against others for those reasons if you want to be consistent you don't need to include that as a premise before hand his so this other one sorry yeah sir just based on that how do you know what category of traits would be important and why unless you actually do establish an anti arbitrary category for the traits to answer a question of minutes right you just keep running traits through name the trait and just realize what cancels out and you can cancel out whole categories you know if you about speciesism well you just run species through the argument do you want to be killed because you're not part of someone else's species yeah you could take that the friend ed approach and just say that well even the axioms that alien well that's that's not a response though that's that's shift that's a red herring because the question is whether your position is internally inconsistent whether it's it's not consistent to say that I simultaneously reject and accept species as a justification for murder switching yourself to the aliens position is just avoiding the question of you say it's okay for you to murder animals based on species you say it's not okay for others to murder you based on species so that's a contradiction yeah okay so dis Nate oh all right so does name the trait convinced one of going vegan upon acceptance and if so how do you mean pragmatically like in real life practical does once someone understands that equity and you suppose well logically speaking logically speaking it doesn't necessarily point to veganism yeah it's you there's other positions that can be consistent like if you just generally read it more nihilism is consistent so no and then it doesn't it doesn't logically necessitate veganism there's two premises that I usually include beforehand which are logical consistency and human moral value now just like the shit that philosophical reach was trying to say I have to include beforehand I don't actually have to include either of those beforehand either you can reach them also with name the trait well do you want to just deny a human moral value and get murked probably nots you can't do that do you want to deny logical consistency and morality well I mean I'm assuming you don't want someone to just say oh I'm just gonna be inconsistent and murder you so you can reach those after the fact you'll actually have to stay to miss premises but um if you if you state those beforehand then logically speaking it would lead you to veganism if you want to remain consistent and then practically speaking does everyone who understands that argument go vegan I honestly just I don't even know the answer to that question I have no fucking idea yeah you know and it's actually honest an intellectually honest person with integrity as and they maintain consistency between their thoughts and actions would go vegan from that but yeah most people don't have that level of like character development most people even who've gone vegan they don't go vegan right away it's like they don't just see the info and go vegan I did so I'm not a fucking bitch but a lot of people it's like oh my my baby steps my transition period away from stabbings grow up grow up here yeah that's the kind of action that you take into account or you actually learn when you actually have reached you know the stage of being an adult I mean jesus fucking christ um but how do you just fundamental again before you ask this question before but um I don't think really we flush it out enough but how exactly do you arrive at human moral rights fundamentally speaking um well that's that's a question that I mean like we can talk about how like I would arrive there but that's a question that I will not entertain in a debate unless that person actually says that they're for abolishing murder laws and stuff like this so they already accept it but they'll right yeah if they already accept human rights were arguing for veganism from that position we're not talking about why human rights should exist what why do i why human rights exist that's particular terminal framework so your personal framework that is exclusive to the debate framework yeah sorry yeah I'm sorry guys amen yeah all right thanks see you guys good Chad man have a good yeah I'll chill around or with you you can ask the rest of your shit Yemen uh so basically to your personal framework how do you actually arrive personally look so this is not your yourself towards it's like a debate framework we are attacking an opposition or defending yourself from our position but how do you arrive personally to human moral right so I just want to know your your methods I don't want to be murdered for no reason I want to be treated well so it's a self-reflective thing yes just I don't want to be treated like that and if I want to be consistent about that I can't support treating others like that cool so from this yeah yeah because a lot of people tend not to really get the name of trade argument so how do you actually arrive at animal more rights from human moral rights just to elucidate the pathway so well I mean if you if you agree with human moral value then someone else I mean what you've effectively done is you've said I think humans deserve moral value and someone can say well I think animals deserve moral value so in order to rebut that you actually have to put out a justification that you'd accept if it were true of you and you can't so if you're going to accept it for humans then it follows that you have to do for animals would you also be able to say that it would also apply to plants if it's just that simple how would it apply to plants you can differentiate plants in a meaningful way plants aren't sentient sure enough all right so yeah but there's also there's also a few philosophically minded people who think they've found a clever way around this who who really actually just idiots and they think what they say they say it's an appeal to ignorance there could be a trait and you don't know why do you assume there's not well I mean the whole problem there is if I say ok well there might be a trait that differentiates white people from black people I can't name it but based on this supposed you know trait that may exist I'm going to just murder black people you're gonna say I know I'm erring on the side of caution and Sue me there's not a trait so to justify erring on separate sides of caution based on whether it's human or you'd have to name trade so it just brings you back to name trade would be better to say that it's through like its shared experience of well-being rather than just simply saying this because we're in the same category of sentience the the reason why we should have and yeah animal rights as well as I mean it's all that stuff kind of bundles together for me like sentience gives you the space to experience well-being and suffering like obviously those are like moral quantities we're concerned with I mean if a being could not experience any suffering or well-being but it was sentient I mean I don't know what it would mean to mistreat that being if you can't actually cause it to like have a negative experience in any way so I mean there's definitely a need for a concern for well-being down there again an ontological objective need but like to create a rational system I think we pretty much have to be concerned with okay so it's suffering if you if you do use well-being or suffering as some sort of traits to discipline what morally applies how exactly would you arrive at well-being being a moral criterion so how would you actually arrive well you I'm not sure how you're asking this because it's said that you're asking me to build build a case for like objectively why that should matter and there is there's no reason objectively why anything should matter its value is part of the subjective dimension it's not it's not it doesn't exist outside of minds so I'll say for definitionally you always within the category then that means that in order for it to qualify the topic or the qualified the the actual category morality that it necessarily must include these specific criterions from one's perspective I I don't I don't hold that position I mean you can build a business that's just like evil and inconsistent and say that's your morality it's just it's an evil young consistent we'd have to you have to basically find out a way to remove these types of genetic anomalies like say for instance sadomasochism or these socially influenced opinions like that this inchoate my nihilism lot bearing in TJ Kirk has we're really annoys you a you you do not like that view I really fucking hate TJ and I really fucking hate bearing on their the dumbest motherfuckers I've come across ever okay when it comes to the subject immorality there sofas and it is so frustrating the way which they do craft their responses and they even discuss the subject it boggles the mind how they cannot actually see their own cognitive dissonance both affirming and denying moral truth aptness I guess you could say both saying yes like yeah Morrow nihilism and also social construct truth aptness like what the fuck are you on you dumb fuck yeah see I don't I don't know either of their content well enough to actually have a clear opinion there but like like if if that is fucking accurate I can definitely understand how that would annoy you if they're like claiming to be nihilus but saying moral statements are true that and just just to be clear like with all that shit like again I think that connects to what you'd call error theory and he does to be clear like my position there it's like no moral statements are not true that they're like conditionally truth apt assuming that you define what moral means once you define it then there's truth app does any other thing in science or logic yeah so they are reference to a specific state of affairs and unless some like the state of affairs comports to that definition it doesn't qualify the category of morality semantically speaking so people can't fucking understand that it boggles the mind how to actually rectify that stupid mistake so that's pretty much why I personally go for a found here interest approach which is to start from the ground up because otherwise we don't actually solve these metalinguistic disapprovals and we just i click the line' bow of moral nihilism versus more objectivism just absolutely retarded i see like i just i don't want to argue from the ground up with someone who already accepts moral principles because that's kind of like saying that you know even if you can teleport to halfway up the mountain you should just climb it even if there's some like vital goal to reach at the top it's like I'm taking the fucking teleporter I'm not going to waste time arguing for how morality exists or why morality should unless you're gonna say that they want an inconsistent morality or reject like basic moral principles like that shouldn't be done again reject them subjectively I'm never talking about ontologically this is true like if unless they're going to say I personally am okay with murder or I personally am okay with inconsistency we're arguing from what you hold together or not we're not gonna go down and like it's just annoying it's kind of like like someone who's like standing on a table being like like you know what prove to me like like it's that's not the best analogy but it's like you're already on the fucking table I'm not going to like you know start from the assumption that we're on the ground because I can already see you standing on it you know yeah you actually want to let loose on regarding that um but there's just too much shit to actually go through there's too many flaws in their argumentation too many fucking fallacies that they don't actually understand themselves yet deploy as trying to append to our arguments for veganism and then they'll say shit like as pure defense for their utter retardation saying that as if it is an argument that you're trying to construct an objective opinion my opinion about morality is objectively correct and is my opinion alone and as if that's a fucking argument so knowing and with me it's like no not I'm just pointing out yours is contradictory mmm exactly and then another day that and they make this very very delusional and paranoid assertion assumption based on that that you were trying to say on that it's you're in particular opinion that is objectively correct yeah they make this mad absolutely insane uh follow through from it that actually doesn't follow it's just pure delusion and paranoia built up from the shit that agent Kirk and and fucking Barry say on the subject of morality I was like Colton that the biggest comes fabulous I'm not sure if like the existence of that kind of thing on YouTube comes from them but I'm just agnostic on that I just don't know the history of their videos and channels they cultivate to vaster the following to not have any sort of influence based like on that subject and other self because so many people like it and it's so frustrating to see people actually subscribing to the erroneous bullshit this absolute sophistry this tribe this fucking nonsense wherever other adjective that means retardation that can be appended to that subject you know and to be clear the subject you're talking about you're talking about professionalism and science simultaneously like advocating for morality yeah so this bullshit distant yeah I mean like I can understand on some level I guess because it's like you know I don't believe it exists objectively but I still want to construct a functional moral system for society but at the same time it's like I mean I've just I've seen barring and TJ just be incredibly intellectually dishonest on the topic of veganism like I'm not gonna get that claim right now I think anyone can look up like a you know amazing a drunken peasants with Richard or like bearings debate with Richard and just see what I'm talking about yeah you could even take it to the next level and see what what the fuck they did to me Jesus Christ I got land outlook for almost a year yeah we talked about this once they what did they do do they meme you or something yeah they made me um and actually took the piss and I thought I was being serious I took the piss out of my own argument and they thought that I was trying to like be arrogantly like this is the kind of doublethink that they have they don't actually they make these paranoid assertions non-stop and because there's all about like the social contract in that fucking DPP sphere that whatever immediate assumptions they can make as long as it gains social traction within their fan group it's therefore true and therefore because they made the assumption that I was trying to like Erica we make myself look better they started to actually believe that and I got lambasted for a fucking year almost because of their own retardation and lies like I just I don't know the situation well enough but that is unfortunate I'm sorry that happened is the media at now or do they still yeah oh they state they actually they that there's still there's still plenty of retards there Leslie a V area out there that's basically titled a DPP objective morality guy and it's got a picture in my face so you immediately say it's got about seven thousand views which is actually quite significant for a sectional video a part of the the action mhm drew some random clip yeah yeah so I I had quite a few fucking fanboys up my ass about shit they didn't even understand making all these paranoid assumptions so if you guys want to look it up actually I'll probably link it in the description if you guys do win a to peruse the absolute mess that was my argumentation back in 2016 but also the argumentative mess that their response was which is absolutely fucking embarrassing Darren maybe you should come back now and just murk them on veganism yeah I'm planning to do that I'll be doing that on my own my second channel actually it's technically going to be my main a production channel dayz scope in time in time guys though in time where do they do get the equipment and I trust me I'm fucking strapped for cash so I yeah that's why I've set up a patreon but as to whether it be successful it's redundant it's whether the people want to hear me express my opinions and look the fuck out of retards I got you man that's weird I'm I'm starting to wear a tiny bit so we should finish up whatever you'd like absolute so is there any like final shit that you want to hit him yeah and that would be just one last question to you and what would you saving your prescriptive ethics also what should we do as humans in society I think generally speaking we should try to maximize well being reduced suffering and we should be logically consistent beautiful how succinct that's that's perfect
Last edited by NonZeroSum on Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NonZeroSum
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Re: Transcripts for sourcing.

Post by NonZeroSum »

________

Audience Q&A: 2:00:11


so I think we should take a Q&A section earthly until we've worn out because it's now full nineteen a.m. where I'm at so I'm kind of worn myself holy fuck yeah sure ask me if you and then I think I'm gonna yeah oh yeah so what have the people would say so the OJ Muslim Liam Anthony all colonizers doesn't want to take I'm not taking any questions from ISM hey sure yeah like I can suck my dick yeah is he here this one alright so yeah Barrington big ism flipping the chessboard when he's about to lose yep that's that's pretty much it if you guys have any like specific comments that would be much more appreciated than it's like just just random statements about what we have talked about because if we can actually got it towards like a specific subjects to cater to what you want to learn in particular that can be a lot more substantive and helpful no so questions if the yeah if the chair has a question or two I can answer them yeah so let's go to two or three what yeah or just whatever people come up with them within the space of five minutes because I'm gonna say that's probably all we would have left and it's really shame that Martin didn't come on because that's gonna ask him where he's been and discuss like security stuff because I actually do want to become up down to myself so it'd be great to know what he what he we what information he has to offer and I was gonna discuss what is good to him cuz he he'd lost that subject so um coffee smoke asks question for that Oscar guy asked guy his name is Isaac and he is one of the pioneers of rational veganism so pay your motherfucking respects night but what's what's the what's the question what's he asking why are the morality if it's just a matter of opinion well I mean presumably you want some people to change their opinions yeah for functional reasons I'm assuming oh I mean it's pretty straightforward answer it's like are you happy with the opinions that the Taliban holds like are you happy with the opinions of like I don't know if we're if you're a liberal or a conservative but are you happy with the other side's opinions wouldn't you rather have conversation and try to you know argue people into rational positions it's not like people are just dogmatically glued to everything they believe people do change their views I mean yeah pretty much everyone here is vegan I assume so I think everyone there has changed at least one view rokay asks I could construct a consistent moral framework around the welfare of rocks is consistency really all you value no no of course not you can make a consistent framework where you know you could say that the moral the most moral action is the one that brings objects closer to a fixed point in space so like if you punch someone it's right if they fall in the right direction as wrong if they fall in the wrong direction like you can make a consistent framework that's just totally arbitrary and fuck like I think that we do want to build a framework based on the kind of world that we actually want to live in I just I think that you can pretty much across the board say that people don't want to live in a world where they can just be like arbitrarily merked for no reason so kind of when you start talking about how to build that system you start incorporating principles like logical consistency because if you don't then it just cascades into nonsense that no one wants yeah that's right so let's see so so just to be clear no consistency is not the only thing I value Cobain's so Luna Winter asks why are you willing to accept utilitarianism entirely I don't think Isaac said that but ya know I I actually have like some issues which I spend presentations late in here so either that person just joined or they're one of those kind of stupid people who like can't actually really flaky what we're talking about and this is this falls in line with the idea that a lot of these cup types of guys tend to make these paranoid assumptions based on the limited amount of data that they've been given I wouldn't call it paranoid it's just like maybe some of them are paranoid it's just yeah like I don't hold some kind of like dogmatic utilitarianism I mean we could rehash it but we've already kind of talked about yeah the short yeah I mean the short version is utilitarianism leads to some positions that I'm not happy with the best you know utilitarian or consequentialist arguments for those absurdities are pragmatic and you can't actually argue against them in on the principled level so yeah I have issues with utilitarianism so don't know what else to really say there except for rehashing the specifics of my disagreements which we already kind of got into it start right so my cool HS said Darren is a stupid person asking question asking the question wrong is he right what question yeah which one and Darren's a stupid person I don't think he's stupid I don't know what Darren's fucking IQ is but it definitely doesn't seem stupid yeah um I was actually thinking of Gangwon Q test but oh hey I hear this that's just really really expensive actually got some money for sure yeah yeah it's really it's it's really great to do though because the most interesting thing is not actually your general IQ score that you can be like oh I'm smart or like this house tomorrow I'm relative to other people like the best part is when it breaks your intelligences into like subcategories and you can be like you have good like pattern recognition I have like bad reading comprehension I have good visual memory whatever it might be like I have a very like polarized IQ kind of profile like there's areas where I literally score zero like I was in the zero percentile on visual memory so that's like cool asks where they put a basic drawing in front of you of like circles and lines and stuff like this hold it for 15 seconds take it away and you reproduce it I I have I'm terrible I'm actually like if you so zero percentile that that basically means a hundred percent of people who do this do better than me at it and then there's other areas yeah then there's other areas where I score really high like reading comprehension or like abstracts that what happens and I think the highest ones were reading comprehension and visual pattern synthesis so the coolest thing about IQ tests is almost in my opinion it's like the sub categories of intelligence that you have and seeing how they break down and you'll learn a lot about yourself it's really interesting worth doing highly recommend beautiful so one last question and then we'll we'll end it so that way we're not really sure saying well paused I'll welcome you know what I mean so it's all good Thaddeus Walker Jesus Christ Walker said ASPs question for the masses I don't know what oh don't know that Merck means get me some etymology or else it's okay Burk with Merck with EU is an alternative spelling with Merck with an E which is short form for mercenary assassination basically yes just two Merck someone til like send a mercenary to kill them - just just - kill them - like own them like a mercenaries a professional killer right like somebody's paid to do this shit so you hire a mercenary to kill someone and then you deploy logical argumentation to kill someone's argument yeah sure good yeah I think that's it oh yeah thank you so much thank you so much yeah yes no and I'm happy to talk with the smaller vegan channels for you no I don't want to get super bogged down but like for those of you who just kind of want to like get more exposure or whatever you know like I I'm always down to communicate with the other vegans I think that generally speaking you want to like try to lift up as many of the people on the smaller level as you can who hold like sufficiently similar views that you don't think it's bad to give them attention so yeah I'm always reachable it's good talking to you specifically Darren beautiful thank you so much miss bean that's best best being a fucking excellent stream on irken it's just a shame that you know another time oh yeah I am going to talk a little bit more about like say for instance my future on youtube so i really do i do appreciate one last time oh i can't stress enough how much I appreciate you coming on to my stream that's that's absolutely excellent it's demonstrated by a lot of youtubers out there who you have a a higher level of social presence hats off to you men have a fantastic day yeah I'll say one thing to that with with streaming with smaller channels like the reason why a lot of bigger channels don't want to do that is because it gives people attention like if I give some Karnas channel attention by debating them they'll gain a bunch of subs I'll gain a bunch of people it's just it's not worth it but if they're vegans fucking sure I only spend time on karna so if they actually have a following and it's going to get out to people anyway great talking you appreciate it anytime have a good okay so one final thing to discuss is in fact shirts because I'm gonna be opening up a line of merchandise so this may be interesting it may interest some people I know this is going to drop a lot of the viewers and that's fine but just the viewers who are still interested in my potential on youtube and my future consider in the future that I will be opening up a line of merchandise and I was not open up the defile the photo that shows all the different types of things like t-shirts mugs posters and they aren't specific to my channel so some as if your fanboying over me by buying these products you are buying something that could be perfectly catered to your situation philosophically speaking or ethically speaking academically speaking anything so let me open up the thing and I'll actually give you guys an example so products I'm going to be producing I've got on those start writing logic author so it's gonna take me a very long time it's gonna be a process that occurs over time so I want to write books such as a debunking series that delved into say for instance debunking sophistry it sounds like a difficult difficult subject to do but if you find out the fundamental function of philosophy of the fundamental function of human conceptualization you can actually construct and deploy an argument against faulty mechanisms of conceptual functions which would in fact debunk things like sophistry another thing that would be debunking solipsism simulation theory and trust me they are not infinitesimally removed from truth statements you can actually find answers to them and I want to keep the answer there the reasoning for the answer a secret until I can produce the book because they're pretty heavy and it's taken me such a fucking long time and hard study to get to these answers so they'd be very much after the fact because I want my my efforts to be worth something in end and then things like debunking McCarty's you demon like how do you know that your mind isn't just influenced by invisible malevolent demon that every single thought in love itself is influenced and constructed by the Cartesian demon who's just influencing a thought your psychological constructs how do a book on debunking that and traffic that's just as big and hard hitting as debunking simulation theory there are fucking massive subjects so the answers and rationale to which are pretty long-winded they're very serpentine very secure dhis another one that I want to do and this is going to piss off a lot of people but how to metaphysically debunk God is another very very big hard-hitting one and that's not to get into the personal subjective senses of defining an entity as God which could actually extend unlimitedly I'm talking about specific to the definition outlined by Oxford and if God if he was or it was dependent on any other predicate other than omnipotence suggest what would be his necessary predicate if it wasn't on evidence so will be employing law of identity or exclude a middle and lauren contradiction as well as simple tableau semantic logics a lot of formal logics but put into layman's speak and that's why the books are gonna be pretty big they're going pretty barking and then the final book in a series would have to be debunking nihilism so that's that's that's a big um a book series that I would love to produce and other things like constru contributing to Cambridge University Press by producing books like a full introduction to philosophy and instruction to meta epistemology like how they've got an introduction to mathematics that they ought to also have introduction to mr. Balaji and normative epistemology which basically set up the foundations for deriving epistemology in the first place and then an introduction to the philosophy of logic there'd be another incredibly valuable one because there is a book by Graeme priest that is published by um by Cambridge University Press that goes into non classical logics but doesn't really give you a good free a preamble of which i think is really well done by susan haack she'sshe's gonna book good philosophy of logics but it came out nineteen cents so it the subject and other self needs to be reinvigorated so I'll happily do that and instruction to morality ethics as an alternative to introduction to to ethics which heavily emphasizes on good theories of good and right so that would be covered by an introduction to morality and now to the actual subject at hand merchandise mugs first and foremost I want to create a mug that basically has like an arrow pointing upwards that says unshakable philosopher I want to empower you people through aspects just to give yourself a grounded idea of where you are heading in your future whether you want to be a philosopher a scientist a linguist and economist a politician I want to inspire you all process your progress to these conclusions so I've got things like em on mugs unshakable Philosopher's meet hard tears that's absolutely necessary moral relativist tears nihilist tears philosophize ation fuel so that's for those who are drinking coffee and shit like that got sofas tears and I'll probably have a picture of the face of friended on us because our kin are gonna be little bit um you know contextual and then if you're an anarchist also have status to tears because I love drinking up the agony and angst of retards of willful retards you could be anything but a retard but you choose to be so and I take relish in your struggle so now we're going to move on to shirts so the types of shirts they want to produce are going to be like in a series of academia so like say for instance in academia there is a general principle for reading books which is either to read a chapter every day or 25 pages a day so along those lines and through the methods of like sq3r sq4r or just simply active reading so I have two different shirts for that so one shirt they would say a chapter a day if you follow that or 25 pages a day so it not only expresses those you are academically primed and reading a shit-ton but it also I think it has the capacity to inspire others to basically follow in your footsteps because it's really an easy achievement but you'd be surprised how much you can actually learn over time just by doing that following that super easy thing that only takes the first more small period of your day out but really inserts value into that small period of the day and so another another shirt that I'd like to produce would be I heart learning further for the students and I heart teaching for the teachers because and then I'm going to like those who are very boom they want to make him make a change in academia in particular have the have had the same research methodology for the win of course it can inspire other students there to start looking up research methodology and be inspired to actually look into it because for each estimation methodology is the very methodology that PhD people go for and it connects edit and the actual act of doing so it's actually so easy but so powerful research methodology is amazing it Prime's you for PhDs it Prime's you for higher doctorates so that's when this this these two t-shirts come in shooting for a PhD and shooting for a deal it a deal it is the highest attainable degree in academia and if you're primed for that buy that t-shirt and inspire others to look up what a deal it is and to be inspired to get it themselves and make some waves in academia because you can have some tremendous influence by RIT by achieving a D lit a literary doctorate is amazing so I'll give an example of someone who is literally probably the smartest most influential logician who ever existed Graham priest has a deal it not exactly sure what impact philosophy specializing with double majoring in epistemology and logic but he has made some incredible waves he's the guy who is known for daily Thea now daily Thea is the positive logical true contradiction let's see if I get my cut yeah alright so daily Thea is such the statement on the other side of this card is true flip the card the statement on the other side of this card is false so that means that it's false sense false because it's saying that the other side is false so if the other side's saying it's true that means is now therefore that the other side is false an infinite regression that cannot be answered and thereby we have established a true contradiction but the thing about it is it only applies to his truth statements about true statements so that that's that's an interesting little side side thing really really cool as what Graham priest is known for typically and then I want to establish a and chill series I know it's it's old ship but um it's still fun so like for the people who are into these particular subjects like Austrian economics and chilled capitalism and chill Rothbard and chill stuff like that and flock philosophy contemplate metaphysics and she'll discuss epistemic limitations and chill formal falsifies ation and chill just these absurdities that just completely blows the typical normative idea of that joke out of the water and we've got like science and tools with biology and shield chemistry and chill neurology and chill physics and science and sure economics and chill bullshit and also whatever because I'd love to get into physical fitness and I'd love to start researching specifically into a Dietetics so I'd also I'd love to say this t-shirt series that can also appeal to bodybuilders power lifters weight lifters calisthenics people although I haven't really thought of many ideas for them just yet but I will get there but honest I've a series and bodybuilders like say for instance fueled by gains get yoked be at cringy shit like that crazy shall I then it's catchy it's catchy and it really represents a lifestyle that is desirable and naturally enhanced or bust if you guys have heard of alpha Destiny I suggest you look them up if you're into physical fitness look that motherfucker up is amazing stoicism in position and the hustle see those three things are fucking revolutionary to one's to one's life so not only does that does that apply to you like by building but also plus diet and in a more abstract more all-encompassing in a place or self-betterment so to be stoic to be an imposing force to adversities and to just hustle so just work smart and keep working smart don't stop keep looking for better methods as time goes on and then apply them that's a true hustle and I'd like that to be representative represented in my foiling line and I'd have liked own a diet t-shirt series like say for instance fueled by veganism plant-based kicking asses the brontosaurus take the green pill vegan muscle and by the way take the green pill I thank Jack green for that thank you Jack green go subscribe to Jack green he's pretty excellent he reminds me of Isaac and they actually want to beef before but that's beside another taste joke seriously I would like to open up is extensional to the mug series so unshakable philosopher with an arrow pointing up will be part of the series as it is part of the mug series um epistemological found here in Chisholm for the win and trust me people I will delve into that subject and elucidate the fuck out of it so that you people actually do understand these these incredibly deep formal philosophical ideas and how they apply but in a very Lehman's sense so that way you can you can actually personally apply it in normal situations which is exactly how they should be utilized it should be utilized pragmatically to to a result to achieve a result to achieve efficacy another Taoiseach and elective release is I am a moral found hero just look it up and be enlightened which basically does enhance traffic too much as I do when I do posit the epistemological status of morality being found here at ism and that sounds like a lot to take in and trust me it is it's a shit ton to take in but I will actually delve into that in my first educational video for this channel the first educational video is going to be an introduction to ethics how do you think morally so it's going to be part one of I think perhaps a three-part series of just dedicated to introduction to ethics and I'll start to delve into extensions like introduction to moral found here in Chisholm introduction to mareul epistemology all the simplicity is like that another one another t-shirt kiss me I'm philosophical alternative to that is query me I'm philosophical so you could choose other one honor one of that and then yeah that work out well work in the be cool fucking hell I'd wear that so I thought maybe you guys would wear it too so another good one it really depends on what people buy that determines that it's good so let's get meta baby cringy as fuck but it is my slogan and let's get Messer baby so another t-shirt that is one to one with let's get meta baby would be meta philosophy meta epistemology meta meta physics and meta ethics just just just label yourself as the meta came of formal philosophy and then the last shirt in the philosophy series would be rational empiricism for the win because it's a combination of rationality and empirical frameworks that makes a philosopher truly rigorous and understanding of philosophy so rational empiricism is totally for the win so I would more series and then I'll shut up I'll let you guys do your thing but I feel like a political series that says Austrian economics is dope and I won this queries politically opinionated study formal philosophy so it's gonna have like a picture of Anita sarkeesian with their eyes crossed out because she's philosophically illiterate so another one would be social justice isn't oxymoron and it's gonna have a picture of Che Guevara with his eyes cut out not eyes cut out Jesus cross I would sounds like a Pathak that sound yeah just his eyes crossed out because he's blind to the idea of social justice actually working or not so another one would be taxation is legalized theft literally by definition so this is really really appealing to the anarcho-capitalists out there or even just the anarchists in general so if you're an anarcho-syndicalist this shirts for you another one would be you know this is particular to my particular views so it's particular to particulars so meta let's get motor baby but yeah a vegan atheist anarchist if you do follow those three things at once that's that's pretty damn cool and you are a super rarity I'd say you perhaps within the like 10,000 people on the entire planet if you are a knocker capitalist a vegan and an atheist that's probably the rarest demographic ideologically speaking on the planet just saying but if you are props to you through through for being part of that scarcity economically speaking and the final final t-shirt series is going to be self-betterment so on a t-shirt black coffees and cold shelves because you are passionate about the grind you're passionate about the hustle a loved one will be I heart Dale Carnegie I heart I can toll I heart stephen r.covey the three or three main pioneers of self-betterment and business excellence so if you guys have heard of them and I'm sure you will have if you've studied anything to do with self-betterment that they will be the t-shirts for you another t-shirt would be professional hustle oh good I love the hustle you have to hell up the hustle life is a hospital don't make it a hassle another one will be stoicism minimalism sysm and I will explain for efficient ISM maximize your functionality is a human and you will have achieved proficient ISM and yeah I've got that ISM so the proficient ISM exactly so the final shot I have in the entire series is going to be the quote that my channel runs by which is by Daniel Dennett the secret of happiness is find something more important than you are and dedicate your life to it so I would love that quote on a t-shirt for people to basically spread and enlighten others as to their capacity is from the beings oh and by the way I'm open to suggestions so I'll scroll back up when I finished reading up this entire series and I'll I'll take I'll take into account whatever you guys have suggested so yes one more one of merchandise is posters so based on what I learn within my massive list 27 books elections two formal philosophies and explanations of incredibly big subjects within these formal philosophies I will basically I'll create posters that you can hang up in your room to look at and be inspired by the fundamental simplicity of functions axioms tableaus all this esoteric stuff simplified so I'd have a poster dedicated to the structural map of biology the structural map of chemistry cognitive sciences cognitive sciences like neuroscience psychology social science and the like the structural map of economics structural map of physics starting from the very first discipline all the way to the end like how a mariana trench of disciplines is and very briefly explain in key terms what they mean and why they happen sequentially so that maybe he valid valued to those who are looking to study these subjects I will do the the very quick table of contents mapping of the entire subject I'll put on a poster and give it to you so that way you don't have to do that that grinding work another another group of structural maps could be in epidemiology so that will include truth values of truth theories quantitative and qualitative distinctions so like say for instance logic linguistics and mathematics linguistics is purely qualitative qualitative logic is qualitative and quantitative and maths is purely quantitative so talking about the structural coherence of this the necessary sequence and putting it in layman's speak so that way you do understand and intuitively grasp why fearfully develop the way they do so I'd also include like say for instance the structural map of ethics linguistics logics and ethics mathematics so that way you also get a grasp of these fundamental disciplines and how they work and then I'd also have finally the final series of merchandise in posters is the structural map of cognitive disciplines so that is structural map of metaphysics the structural map of philosophy the structural map of self-betterment where to start and how to found here in Slee approach the function of these disciplines that's basically how the structural map works what is the function of these specific disciplines and why do they in such a way to these more complex ideas like how math starts from simple linear graphic a graphical functions and then turns into extensional II things like topology Mariella G really deep quantum computation or stuff it's amazing uhm to actually learn the process and the progress it can give you the most fundamental foundational and helpful and all applicable ideas and comprehension of these basic subjects that apply to all of your life and to all of reality in illimitably so I reckon these if these like if these products and merchants Isis if they if they sound like something you would buy let me know and if you have any suggestions let me know because I listen to you people I listen because I want to produce something of value to people I don't want to just simply blindly a beast swept up in like say for instance popularity and just forget about my viewers because my viewers is what creates that popularity so you people mean everything to me you people truly do you mean everything to me on youtube if what's it for you won't be here right now so thank you thank you all whether you're new whether you you've been here for a while whether you're your loyal subscriber you guys mean everything to my progress on youtube so i really cannot thank you all enough let see me grow if you want to see me progress in a very functional way help me buy equipment it'd be absolutely incredibly beneficial to my ability to produce content faster i don't even need the time outside of my work to do this i just do it because it's something i can do like that it truly is I just need the equipment I need a new computer I need a microphone and I need a camera that's all I'll ever need but we'll just start off with the simple things we'll start off with um mic that's all I want well that's all that's functionally necessary to begin my endeavors in Merkin me turds and pious morons and politically inept morons as well so now it's time to read some comments sorry for taking so long people I really do apologize I'm taking so long I just need to get that done boom and now undercommons you guys have any had any input that's fine oh by the way BAM through I'm pretty sure I could make a custom shirt for you that says query me I'm queer I cannot see you right down to the ground you guys are talking about that at philosophical stuff which is great it's a good to see that a lot more like-minded people on like on the internet you guys are truly fantastic I'm so I'm I'm truly ecstatic that there are actually other people who who think like me and not for that echo chamber satisfaction of of sameness the same lies in our non-biased rigorous approach to argumentation to find genuine truths and not to simply states that everyone's opinion is relative that everyone's opinion is wrong everyone opinion is equally as valid as each other I'm glad that a lot of people out there who I see as methodologically rigorous as I am as refreshing I'm gonna come across people liking you guys before it is truly refreshing so I do thank you for existing and this truly thanks to people like ask yourself Richard Isaac Richard and um Martin from think about this for influencing this social movement and who's this peer pressure towards true rationalization is incredibly valid reason to employees peer pressure would be towards your own betterment and for the betterment of others equally so in the stream over they are need to go to sleep sorry coffee smog oh oh end the stream soon as possible Karl Marx was right I don't know what to believe because he's racist cuz he's racist B being white cuz humans all I've been with Siri is great you can always be sure to expect reliably hilarious comments to be said by bandwidth 0 he's a reliable source of trolling I just have a huge issue with not being with not being to determine between reality and hallucinations gives me anxiety on assembly we can discuss that and latest latest dreams but summer school lab select the bottom where you guys are actually talking down looks highly caffeinated I'm not I'm tired he's full of coffee nah not even close I wish but no oh no I just feel super inspired by these subjects these these discussions it's the equivalent of caffeine to me it gives me like this cortisol or serotonin high that's great it's where I am where oh they're expect caffeine has replaced his blood Oh wish Tyler oh boy that's my wife she's amazing clocking off guys off see I'm obvious let's see this really sucks mmm let's say agreed it's not happiness for confirmation bias just appreciate a rare human that's right if I come across specks of gold in the water it's something to respect even if if you don't know how to economically tie that it's just still something that's nice to see because here and see it very often our traps gay I don't know ask Bill Goldberg he's got the biggest traps of ever staying at wraps gay trapezius muscles of manliest hell I'm gonna murky mizzen remark the fuckin E you know what fuck it let's do this let's do this guy's I'm crazy enough this Oh I haven't just opened up a can of worms of potential can of worms always hesitant but now I'm thinking let's do it no takers I was going to bed but I'm up now damn right you are I catch ladies with my traps my traps are better damn right Leo Choi tell us were the biggest traps I've ever seen their ears she's got that Brock Lesnar in his heyday look reason for come to his ears it's great trap a man who just is like a woman but what and somewhat feminine in appearance must be mistaken for women's who you are in the bedroom with one oh that makes sense why you'd call that a trap that makes sense yeah unexpect Thailand to be filled with traps I get more females in an hour then you've got you try Elijah fuck damn right it doesn't count if it's what you guys turn that love me so calm like Jesus Christ this conversation is derailed or I'm gonna clock off now guys before things get a little bit too weird I'm going to put the other timestamps for the different subject discussions in the description or not the description but in the comment section I'm gonna pin it and it's going to make it free make it easier to watch so if you're looking for specifics in our discussion and then BAM you're there you're there in philosophical heaven so thank you all very much for watching I really do appreciate you individually and everyone my stuff let's appreciate it what do you like or dislike that's fine by me as long as you're listening absolutely fantastic so thanks again guys have a rational day
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NonZeroSum
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Re: Transcripts for sourcing.

Post by NonZeroSum »

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Anti Vegan Videos of the Week w/Ask Yourself & Chris Hines
Banana Warrior Princess
Streamed live on Sep 24, 2017
1,217 views
Transcript

Hey there we’re live I think we are my chicken y-yeah my phone okay I'm checking out stream as well yeah we should be live 11 watching already it's pretty cool I'm not seeing any life oh hey there goes oh yeah with that with that with that sweet nice anti-vegan nonsense of the week if anyone's got any links in the chat then a you know of some cool anti-vegan nonsense of the week that they might have seen them just them drop it in there I've got three videos for us to respond to guys one of the ones I was gonna responses with a snake diet yeah the snake listen I don't know whether he's just trolling or whether he's just I don't know it's kind of just started by eating snakes about eating like a snake like well like like a whole robbing in one go like this look at in your jaw and stuff I don't know I have no fucking idea is you know where you fast for a few days I don't know what you have to eat afterwards that it's probably not nice it's probably not vegan yeah we'll just wait for a few more people to come and into the chat totally well we're waiting is there a vid sink that we can all be clicking and pausing and playing this from while she's doing it through screen sharing on oh okay alright so you're gonna be the remote control cutemon yeah yeah watching the video and stuff right but you'll be able to were you ready to see the video or just hear it and then we can see it if you screen share that we can see it yeah so yeah it'll be delayed behind so it'll be will be more like listening to it to be fair you don't really need to see it I guess you want to see it okay let me know how you do that and Chris you haven't done all this out for me not to watch the videos way after playing it in a vid sync page just hit me up as well it's just for YouTube ready oh yeah now I can do I can't do that Kanto yeah and then just yeah yeah I mean you could in sync if you changed you know yeah the window you just have to realign it yeah it's just shows that women are not competent to do off the one laptop and I should really have another screen it'd be so much easier it does help your monitors definitely helps talk about yourselves who else is in the chair anyway here we go we got the Deus Walker yeah actually the only person who commented on that video that I sent you know man with thirty two views I think I've seen that name before yeah I've also seen the name Hayley Gresham before I've seen stupider Sudipta gasps yes Kristi agent oh that one was he Tim the legend of the mini what was canet thought you meant there's there's also another Tim who watches a lot of this stuff tell me there's only one Tim the Mo's I don't know the other ones patron so okay high-caste I race Alberto hello I could run this name is the one who thinks milk jar is vegan oh that that guy actually thinks the milk car is a secret vegan show over there that's the I don't I don't know what the logic is there maybe he's like furthering veganism by just being so retarded or I'm not sure Haiti Katie that guy his patron am i new thank you appreciate that Clarence you're up to you'll patreon not limit but your threshold down you Isaac are you go yeah yeah it's like almost at $900 I mean I don't know if it's gonna stay that high because it was boosted up by a few like fairly large patrons so it's more stable when you have lots of small patrons than a few big patrons so we'll see what happens but yeah it's like almost it's close to the second goal that I've set which is actually a thousand bucks and once it gets that level I can start actually and like getting equipment and stuff and then it'll be epic because then I might be able to just ditch doing avatar videos altogether and just come at you live I don't do it off my iPhone now cuz just not at good quality videos okay but it's not stable and the sound is kind of bad and you know what I mean yeah I'm really happy about that shit though people are great this side of patreon but it will see joy intense rewards are huge like I think that people really appreciate when you give something back it didn't really occur to me I was treating it totally like a tip jar but people love it when they get some little like perk out of it so what we're finding people most interested in likewise well I mean they're obviously always going to be the most people on the ones that cost the least so just access to patreon exclusive content but there are people who do appreciate that shit like getting a fucking text response or video response or having time for like actual private conversation where we can you know work on argumentation a chit hmm yeah the the voicemail thing yeah yeah I thought it would be I thought it would be good cuz give you a one-off payment for that it for you I'll do it for free on that you've been known for a while on the tube you also I'm sure if fucking patron give me a shit ton of money over time so yeah it's going downhill a because I am twenty bucks a month for it like a while well yeah but then I was the nice over unemployment fired low two plates up yeah they said I'm in a sink right now I am Q fantastic all right so we can all see the snake diet now this is awesome take the right buttons Chris and hopefully it should um okay and just for the record Emma you're the only one who actually has control over the plan pause like if I try to play it it yeah so you have to stop if we start talking kind of yeah everyone could if you they should make it like that there's got to be one that works like that but this one doesn't do that for some reason okay when I press this the I'm wanting to adjust the volume as well because it might be really loud or really quiet but and have no idea but let me just transition this video across milk juror is a genius that's a funny comment follow severals special : and he does like these videos about he's going to New York to some anti-vegan event in New York whoa there's actually anti-vegan event yeah gathering yeah I don't know what was it I don't think it's happened yet he just keeps promoting it on his channel like meet me at this at the anti-vegan something or other which we find the video but also the snake god yeah yeah yeah yeah totally okay and if you have you talked then I'll just and pause there okay here we go cool I will just make sure we can hear in the chat as well that we did broadcast in yeah yeah hey can you hear that one here that's funny oh yeah I got t-shirts on as well this guy's dedicated yeah yeah I mean the the video on the actual live stream is going to I think lag behind the sound nothing I can really do about that to be honest and try my best yeah I'm just working over I got all right fucking question all the time huge echo hey ready one sec maybe it's just my computer um yeah I'm okay fine yeah okay it's probably just mind that can you try again sorry fucking shame for badass vegan is there a badass meat eater don't fucking eat okay I was a vegan one time 3/8 I don't think that's what I think days what am i I think he's probably just accident he really likes to just show yep that's pretty much his entire YouTube channel I object how a few more just to see where they were consistently all the same and they they actually are like that so okay okay alright because I didn't need three fucking dates I've had people that are vegans for forty days because they didn't eat for 45 days I guess technically they were vegan because they didn't need any meat okay same fucking rules badasses don't need to eat doesn't matter if you're a fucking mediator either now before we forget vegans are fucking pussies pussies world diet okay fucking vegans what are people in third-world countries you can't get me and then vegan oh yeah and I mean it's also just like saying like not getting murdered is just like a privilege of modern society it's like yeah I guess but is that like somehow an argument that it shouldn't be this is a thing that comes up time and time again like it's a first-world issue or you're really privileged to be vegan I just keep hearing it and what I hear when I hear that is sorry go ahead well I mean even if it is it still doesn't justify the Holocaust it doesn't justify murdering animals no of course not and I mean if you really think about what they're saying when they say it's a privilege I mean it sounds to me like the underlying thought pattern there is there's people out there who aren't able to do what you're able to do so therefore you shouldn't do it and that's I mean that just sounds like it could literally justify anything because there's always something that someone else is forced to do that they don't have the privilege of avoiding it's not an argument for doing it or for why that should be ethically you know unproblematic it was very privileged for you to be able to eat meat I mean it was expensive there's only four you know kings and queens and things like that wasn't it into the war but yeah when I was rushing and stuff like meat was a privilege I honestly just do not know enough that the history of the economics of animal products I think it's something you should watch Isaac if you know cynicism the it's a mockumentary called carnage like yeah I've recommended it so many times and that other one with the the rape thing where it's like it's supposed to be analogy between rape and eating meat and it's like a scene in a kitchen and there oh yeah yeah yeah yeah talking those two get recommended all the time College is amazing like it actually goes into a bit of the history and when he's talking about this we stop as much as there's a bit of comedy in there it is pretty factual as well so it's just genius we could watch it on sync what is it all like I'm under the impression it's basically satire yes yeah it's basically it's um it's based in 2060 when we're looking back on a world that used to eat animals and then it kind of goes through history and talk about how you know how we started to eat more meat and how we started to then go away from it but the good thing is is it said it actually uses loads of quite accurate historical references within it so what is saying as much as this gonna be funny actually pretty factor what you'd say everything's true yeah the things that it predicts in the future could actually happen I can see it happening that way and because like it talks about the you know antibiotic resistance and meat and stuff and that's that's the reason why people stop kind of consuming me and dairy and things like that and I can actually see that happening in the future that's probably what how people are gonna you know just like small houses and museums and stuff and I love the that the my fate one my favorite bits is a bit where they show like an Easter egg and it kind of says like oh you know the Easter egg the last kind of artifact of a time when Zagg we're so weird yeah and with superbugs and stuff I don't know if that'll be the you know straw that breaks the camel's back with animal agriculture hey I don't know I'm not sure how exactly will come to an end but it's I mean I think that it's going to be a general like waking up of the public not some like kind of legal process so much not that that's like a legal process the superbugs aren't a legal process but like some people think it just eventually get legislated it probably will at some level but like I don't think that's gonna be the like kind of death blow to carnism yeah I think the first thing we'll probably need is some through environmental they'll probably at least like China's doing already are maybe we're trying to reduce that or reduce meat intake by fifty percent I think by 2050 which is pretty crazy I'd say maybe the environmental impact will be the first thing to get it going but to be honest I don't give a shit what their reasoning is just get it done yeah I it's weird I actually do care about their reasoning very much because I mean there's like deeper more important issues than veganism like just truth which is fundamental to fixing all issues and it's like I mean I want people and just like valuing morality that's just like generally important it's not something that like so I'm happy to I still prefer someone who's vegan to someone who's not vegan regardless of why but I actually do care that they be vegan for moral reasons it's important that people care about morality I think people can um just generally connect more with ethics once they're not putting animals in their mouth there so if you can kind of just get them to that point and then they're not actually partaking but I think you could probably get them to connect easier yo I do hear that angle cuz it just it reduces their like kind of I don't know what to call it just there like attachment to defending it because they're already like one step yeah closer kind of removed from animal products well or closer to veganism um and I think when you're not personally thinking about like what am I gonna do for supper and like you know I want to have my mcdhh Ickx tomorrow if you're already kind of not eating it it's just there's less like internal pressure to resist an ethical argument for veganism in that context yeah and also when you ask a carnist well not a carnist but just anyway for the member of the public who isn't vegan you know like do you think there'll be a vegan world in the future or you know could there be potentially like usually not all the time but they'll generally say yes or what they release it this should be and that indicates to me that you know they they think it's the morally superior thing to do is to no animals products so that's what that's what they've not I've issued this they should probably get now you know you know I mean especially if they understand that the reason it'll be vegan in the future is because we'll understand the ethics or they'll be popular understanding of the ethics and I mean I'm bitched about this before I think on stream with you actually but I mean it sucks that we don't have good data looking into vegan beliefs and what I mean or also just the carnist public's beliefs on veganism but I would actually be interested like from your kind of personal experience just interviewing so many people you really think that most people believe that the world will be vegan yeah I think so but I need to you know I need to specifically start asking that question over and over again in my interviews to really sort of believe that you know I can't just say yeah I didn't know that think widely-held but it's totally possible it is well I mean because most people agree that it is ethically superior and stuff but it's just they said they can't be bothered or they're too selfish or it's inconvenient now you know like all the just the pragmatics the practical reasons not to go vegan so yeah they do agree and they send it when you show me face to face it's a lot easier to for them to agree with the ethics then then on you know just like I like it over the keyboard or even just like an online debate it's much much easier it's getting on your side and it's get them thinking about it I find yeah I mean the one the one exception to that is them watching content maybe because the thing about even in a face-to-face interview there's an element of pressure just of a human they're watching you like I think the most often time that people change their minds even in the context that an interview is what change their might is going to be at home alone later you know yeah I mean even if you persuade someone via an interview they probably don't often on the spot decide to go vegan I you probably see that sometimes but not like that often because they want to they don't want to be told what to do and they want to feel like they've done it themselves and done the research themselves rather than someone yes so just one of the advantages to the video format is you're willing to at least it seems to me like people are willing to have their beliefs contradicted a bit more when it's just some video from some person talking at them in a totally private space where they can just be with themself and respond to it honestly no I'm not saying one is better than the other it's just there's advantages and disadvantages yeah and I just find easier to talk to people face-to-face it's just yeah well yesterday I was talking now and I'll play a video get a minute but then yeah we did a keeper truth event in Norwich and it's just it just seemed like so effortless so flawless like every single person I talk to you just got it immediately and because it was just so easy because basically they were just watching the footage right in front of them like all these images coming up and they just couldn't be ignored and then people were genuinely just coming up and asking questions about it and want to know more like they were asking questions like how do you go vegan how do you do it you know it's just this event is so so good because you just got people yeah it's got people engaged straight away that's all person you know what is this and then sudden get where your food comes from and yeah instantly hooked to them yeah yeah yeah like Emma was going to say something and it just it just becomes like it's becoming like a script for me now like I know exactly what to say yes before how does it make you feel TV animals told I'm not eating animals hissed information go vegan yes pretty much that yeah that's a bandit do the talking in person is just the the energy like if you have good like charisma and especially if the whole group and scene of what you're doing just has a good energy built up around it's like people just get sucked into it come up to it it's a whole sort of like performance axis you know this it's so iconic and like the aesthetic of it is it really draws people in and I just think yeah in my purse sir and I just think like you know okay I'm James SP now I'm just gonna talk like him but really call me whatsoever yeah really watch James videos but I really like what he does watched every one when I've ever watched I've been like yeah he's just got very good like communication persuasion he'd totally senses like when he's putting the pressure on and off like he definitely is the right kind of mind for those uh yeah brief interactions calming the ones once who I've been thinking are really good a Joey is so good you know he carves strung yeah oh he's great Paul Bashir have you guys seen that guy yes anonymous for the voiceless which of the keep things that we we do okay okay hey I think that Emma's even mentioned to me that she's met him before now that I think about it and yeah and James and Paul I really like those guys if he said nothing yet I haven't watched actually enough Edie to know exactly I don't I don't have a clear opinion on him I just for lack of having actually explored this content he's really good you should definitely check ahead and I just want to give a shout out to Etienne alien who's just super chat at me two euros so thanks for the great food thanks for the great big scope I'm gonna pee so thanks Etienne so you always forget to read out the super chats because I keep forgetting them yeah you can you can earn some money from taking live streams let's say okay and should we continue the video yeah yeah yeah the fucking bus if they got stranded okay we were fucking me Bobby fucking fat and cholesterol fucking meat that's why what yeah like it's not it's it's not like the kind of stuff that I have a lot of knowledge on like you know I I don't get into that debate about whether we what biological category we fit it does seem like we have the most herbivorous traits like I don't how we can digest different things but I'm pretty sure cholesterol is not good for you I'm pretty sure you don't want to just be taking in a ton of cholesterol as far as I understand it's pretty clearly correlated with heart disease and the studies that say that it's not are not controlling for cholesterol at baseline oh no he said the romani one didn't either and when it comes to you know we've evolved to eat meat this kind of thing well show me that point to the enzyme then that we have that actually breaks down meat it doesn't exist yeah I think the other thing that's really persuasive with with that stuff is just if we're evolved to eat meat we don't seem like I mean we can't catch animals we can't like eat them raw we have to cook them and stuff so you'd have to be saying that that evolution like took place after we started like hunting or something like I'm not sure it just seems a little little strange to me we need to live long enough to breathe don't we so why would we need to eat meat so it gets a nice for breeding doesn't make any sense like you think like it I just I think that a creature that's evolved to eat meat would be able to like hunt without needing equipment right yeah so if we require equipment to hunt then you're saying that our evolution to eat meat happened post hunting and I don't even know if that's a timeframe enough for any like meaningful like I don't know but that's kind of should I don't really know much about so take that all with a fucking shaker of salt it just it trips my alarms a little bit and to me it's all beside the point because really veganism is about ethics to me at least yeah and none of these videos really get into the ethics because this is the thing I was saying last weekend is that you know when people make anti vegan videos they they're not very sort of intelligent arguments at all they're just no there's nothing good to respond to millions no as far as I know it's probably because the thing is like even a really smart person can only create so good an argument for slavery or for the Holocaust or something like this right like there's it's can help you and if you're philosophically quick and you're witty you might be able to like outsmart vegans just it like rhetorically almost but like once you have a decent enough level of understanding of the vegan arguments it's not even gonna matter how smart someone is it's like bait you you really can't infer just contradicting your own sense of morality just for personal gain what is for ego purposes eating eating meat no no no just arguing against veganism in general when you haven't really got a good point to make about it - I don't know what it's usually for I don't know what it's self-defense from stopping him from feeling bad that's what I think it there's that there is there is ego like sometimes I sense like intense levels of ego investment and I think it's just it's so funny because people will respond whenever you point out someone else's ego investment they'll say what you're not ego invested in your position it's like well there is such a thing as actually like being dishonest you know what I mean there is such a thing as when your own ego is bending your reasoning into a logic and when it's not you know yeah people do know when they're doing that especially if you know you're doing that you know you're just basically dying to have you once oh no no no I mean that kind of assumes that intelligence is connected to self-awareness like some people don't realize they're just like kind of rationalizing their position to preserve their ego but you know others others are aware of it I don't know very self-aware basically yeah I mean I tend to think that they probably correlate but it's obviously not a perfect correlation because there are smart people who definitely lack self-awareness yeah there's definitely more stupid people who lack self-awareness there's some kind of link their efficiency they yeah just efficiency though okay it's funny when they deploy it's funny when they deploy an argument that could like just justify so many things it's like okay so now whatever the most efficient way to do something is that's like what you opt for it's like there's a crowd of people in front of you the most efficient way to get to the fucking till is to just Massacre them and just walk over their corpses is the efficient option we taught that oh he was it made it NICs made a vow list of like every single didn't Nick a cat Kaczmarek is that I answer if I'm saying it wrong yeah I like that guy he's also so many patrons me his list we've gotten so hot we had an amazing we had an amazing one last night some woman called Aaron she's mental was I'm trying to talk about plants are feeling so I linked her to the plant perception paranormal page on Wikipedia I built it because black and white photo though what what look at how old is that photo yeah I mean there's context where that's an argument like AI you makes the black and white photo argument but it's completely valid in the sense he's using it cuz people try to stoke up racial tension and they bring up like black and white video stuff like their photos of Kayla yeah yeah and it's like okay well because in that context you're actually saying black and white photo this is like from it we're like this was actually the case and you can't find any even like current color photography of anything even remotely like this you know yeah yeah yeah what a look it's it's I'm guessing it's yeah it's a guy called sir Jagadish Chandra Bose basically must have done some plant testing or something but nope only because his pictures in black and white he's talking shit yeah I mean on my very first response on plant sentience I forget what it was it might have been called like vegetable genocide or there is another one something like that killing tomato equals dismembering deer but I I put up those two definitions and it's really good to understand it's like there's literally two senses that people talk about plant perception and one of them is completely scientifically legitimate and just absolutely irrefutable something that's true and the other is insane like just insane woowoo with absolutely no so it's like yeah this same term that refers to two things that couldn't be farther apart in terms of how false one is and how true the other is I'll actually got really good backup for the plants have feelings thing because I'm which I debated something called the Fink pot and he destroyed him he just left oh no but like yes he sent me this yeah this link saying about this proves plant sentience everything and I literally tweeted I tweeted the guy that did the study and asked him blank at least straight out does this but you know did your study proved plant sentience in the other oh wow that's actually maybe the best response on planned sentence I've ever heard I thought that if anyone needs her I've got the screenshots you just send and say well this is the guy did with studies so he says whoa whoa wait what's the name of that guy oh is that by any chance the guy fucking milk jar was going on about I don't know I can yes thank you I have a feeling it's a different guy because it sounds like you're talking about someone who did like legit scientific work and just dig my BBC sounded like he was talking about someone who actually like thinks plants have some kind of like powers or something yeah I can take it out remember how far back that was long there's a little while back but I think he's Twitter much so it's gonna be I'm Chuck Schultz no it's different name chemical eco ecologist entomologist plant scientist director of former director of Life Sciences Center Missouri science communication trainer jazz blues guitarist okay weird little and no there yeah you have to wonder if he is getting a lot of messages from like vegans and flesh eaters so it would be so funny if he just had no idea what he was getting himself into we should get him on a stream sometime and now just be that's true we'll just go viral because whenever they bring up plants though we could just bring up that stream look this is the guy that yeah uh-huh and the study and their nonsense that that would be great assuming they're referencing a study by that guy but um did you guys ever if you heard of this guy Jonathan ball comb ball calm Protestant then probably announcing it wrong I doubt it's ball um well he's I don't know exactly what he does he's like some kind of like I think PhD like fish or animal behaviorist type guy and he's written a book called what a fish knows oh I definitely want to buy this book because I watched an interview with him a while ago and it was just a great interview okay there's a lot to say about fish it's surprising the shit that fish do it made me realize there's definitely it like a more there's more like kind of sentient interesting behavior there than you would have originally thought yes like sort of fish played basketball so that's what I needed here I have a question for you guys actually do you do you feel direct empathy for a fish because yeah for me official that ok well we'll just one second because what I feel is that when it's a cow or a pig I empathize very easily and I am like very easily like holy shit I would not want to feel that that looks fucked up when it's a fish I still can feel empathy but I feel like it's it's harder to actually like subjectively feel negative seeing a fish get hurt it's there's a bigger component of logic it's wrong and then when you're talking about like an insect it's like it's very difficult to feel bad for an insect I don't know if you guys and and it's like largely logic in that case that's telling you it's wrong I don't know if you guys relate it's because a fish isn't a mammal of sin obviously we resonate more with mammals pigs cows yes so I guess with a fish they just they would experience things in such a different way to a mammal so we just we don't understand how they think and feel is just completely different a mammal I guess which is why we don't empathize with them as much but we I still have empathy for them sure but yeah obviously it's not as much as if it as a pig or a dog or a cat or anything like that but fish I thought - you like fish of rescued and yeah that and yeah I totally have empathy done yeah they know when I'm coming to feed and everything and I swim over to the side and everything and come in nibble my finger and yeah you know like the more time you said okay near them you can't see that yeah that is thing like people empathize with dogs and cats they don't really amplifies if they if they're a carnist with pigs chickens cows because they just don't interact with them on a daily basis they don't they some people don't interact with those sorts of animals at all in their whole lives you know so of course I agree that a huge component you totally like I agree a big component of it is what kind of animals you're socialized to feel like emotions for basically but there is like you are kind saying a minute ago also for sure a biological level because you know obviously we we can notice that our ability to empathize generally speaking correlates with like genetic relatedness right so we can empathize most easily with like a monkey then something further away like a cow or something then maybe a fish than a bug yeah I mean I don't know the fucking explanation but surely we've like evolved mechanisms to you know detect and understand different like facial patterns and stuff like this in humans and they probably pathetic kind of understanding of other humans that we can detect through like cues and stuff that we notice maybe subconsciously I think that would map onto a creature the more kind of human-like it is the more that the Wolves Faculty of empathy is how well it can it can map best on to something that is most similar to us yeah yeah because you can see the facial movement you can see you know like cheeks moving or like panting or liked it like there's similarities there and there's less similarities there when you're talking about a fish and wave less when you're talking about an insect what the fuck does an insect look like when it's happy it just it doesn't even experience happy does it just buzz around or something you know what I mean yeah because in human beings as well we're all different and when we find a person that's similar to us or make whether it be like same religion same race same model know we all we were like gaming we were like there's a group of vegans join me we will prefer certain types of people we amplifies them more because we are sort of similar to them so I guess it works I think that yeah I don't think that would be evolutionary though like that might be just like you kind of conditioned yourself by being around them and relating to them into caring about them more but like yeah I think that like there's probably reasons why we can empathize more with things that are or falada Klee or genetically as opposed to things that are further from us and I think it's probably because is like em our you know facial reading faculties for example can map onto like a cow easier than it can map onto a fucking fish say of a cat yeah do they see that size that's an interesting little detail I feel like they're on the sides yeah they're kind of like front to inside it almost you know they can see would I mean obviously I don't think you could involve a creature that like didn't have forward-facing vision to a cow or a or a horse or pony it supposed to come in sort of like from the side kind of Pat them before like just the nose because they hate it like it's a - yeah but I think it's more of like a you know they see it as a threat if you come in from the front rather than they can't see you yes let's continue yes let's just fucking go through it there's like it's short let's just with you doesn't even sell this nigga is yeah what's your talking about him we want to explore the snake well I guess that's what the snake guy is then just loads of cholesterol and me and fat and then if you shout it loud enough it becomes true yeah reference to a snake me versus beating games in a fucking plane crash so let's say me and fucking dick shit fucking pussy ass bitch ass beating games we're flying in a fucking plane and we had a pilot and we're in the fucking Arctic and the plane crashes okay ever see the movie alive okay Hey alive no but I think Richard would just outsmart him and probably realize that there's no unlikely to come and then like kill him before he expect it the fucking pilot let's say he died being vegan games lived well I'll tell you right now I wouldn't fucking go more I just wanted like yeah who is more like we're likely to have a fucking like crossbow in the luggage yeah plane though and just look at this guy's neck as well what was it with these cause of that like he's his head it's kind of like pushed back into his neck and then he's this close his body he's got no neck I don't know if that's true does he have no neck I saw a guy with a really long neck the other yeah oh you did yeah see you it was that that a was it a I you who was responding to him yeah yeah it was definitely Sargon yeah it was the the guy who was arguing for an teeth on some I've already forgot yeah it was like the title was like human dress we've got recent a thing that was the longest neck I've seen could be in the Land Before Time I mean if this guy is promoting the snake die surely you should have I don't know I feel like he should have a longer neck maybe he is all neck but you see in like a buffalo or something that's why he's both the inside mistake is do sure people have short necks is this a shit I'm fairly sure this guy I'm very confident that he's quite sure yeah would you would you agree with me was it just like short and stocky he seems like a he's not either people at all it's the white board and I'd be chowing down on that pilot faster than you could shake a stick okay I'd be fucking chowing down on that pilots ass cheek well be this freezing cold fucking being a little bit jobs cry-baby because he doesn't eat meat and now you know what I do after about a fucking month a fucking chowing down that pilot that fucking vegan gains would be dead by that time and I eat him dang I turn vegan gains in the poop I turned him in the fucking poop okay that's what happens the vegans in the horrible logical argue logic turn you into poop though it is I don't think he's gonna explain what it is but basically it is open-ended fasting apparently he experimented on himself to the extreme extent with his 30-day muck snake diet where you can meet your fucking bitch pussy we have both eat fucking meat day that's Kenny oh boy needs huh yeah if you don't agree with me you're a pussy another get that in you get that mix Nick diet that makes snake into you facebook-dot-com forward-slash freestyle fasting his leg is quite cool as well like it's just a forgiving congrats around it I like his logo but yeah he just shuts although to be fair he has got 929 reviews on Facebook 4.9 stars all right okay well you've got like 7,000 people following them on Facebook say what if he does in Facebook live streams as well they've got lots of before and after pictures of people but you can't always been is he gone even himself it's the most important point oh no it looks like he did this kind of diet I mean yeah I don't know I don't know if I can say these in good shape or not I can't we see that's like but looks of it it's like maybe this intermittent fasting that's it like why is it cool this okay I guess snakes maybe it's like a rebranding of intermittent fasting yeah I think anyway oh just keep up the next video so just talk about yourselves but and they said this next one's pretty good it's got a few more sort of them stupid arguments in them but then it's pretty much the same kind of dove kind of like I can't be bothered to be vegan or vegans there and what you'll see yeah I'm done yeah well we'll see if the chat has anything to say Tim's saying we should questions big Lou again put an image of big what next snake I was any questions I remember Dugtrio yeah it's a lot of names I don't know hey there guys what's going on Zen dude and welcome back to another that's right did you guys hear that yeah yeah but it's not in the video saying it on YouTube or video sync well I guess I need to close one down to show the next one I'm not sure this isn't the playlist you know let's just make a new video sync window it's better good program a playlist beforehand okay cuz there's a


48:25 https://youtu.be/JmJiZ2PPzTk


Christie's asked if you're gonna talk about a philosophal vegan in this world like my friend we can go in deep I want to I'm he called me a moral Objectivist using a different definition than I use so either he's using a different definition and making an irrelevant point or he's using the same definition which is the ontological definition and he's incorrect so you're either off topic or you're wrong and neither look great well he posted a whole response it's pretty brutal failure but um he has arguments about how he thinks that I'm excluding premises I don't know we can go through it at some point if you want to you I see the link though from oh yeah this one's like I just in conversations like that it's like when people can't keep pace with me when I'm talking and they're just saying stupid shit I just lose it it's like it's for it oh I just said in conversations like that when someone like can't keep pace with me when I'm talking and I'm just asking like a simple question trying to get an answer they're going off topic and avoiding because they know if they give the answer they've lost the whole fucking point yeah I just I have a hard time I know it's infuriating so you just keep asking the same question over and over whichever your rates they're more cuz they're like we asked me the same question over and over again oh you're not giving me an answer so yeah it's like it's like it's this simple when I'm talking about objectivism I'm talking ontologically I'm talking about whether you believe that morality exists independently of subjective experience do you understand that I don't believe that and he just starts going off in some directions like whoa whoa just slow down I do not believe at morale exists independently from subjective experience do you understand that I am NOT ontologically speaking a moral Objectivist goes off in some direction it's like whoa whoa and it's just like repeat over and over because he knows once he concedes that point it's like if you acknowledge that I'm like it's just you have two options either you're using the other definition which is similar to moral universalism and you're like not even on topic you're talking about something irrelevant or you're using the ontological definition and you're obviously incorrect because I don't believe morality exists ontologically when I say it's off topic it's the same as like if I go on to I use this analogy in the conversation it's like if I go on to a friended video and say we're friend it says that he's not a feminist and I say friended like by the dictionary definition you're a feminist it's like I'm pretty sure that he's aware that he believes in equal rights for women that's obviously not the sense he's using the word he's talking about the general character of the modern feminist movement so it's just like a kind of autistic weird like retarded unnecessary irrelevant correction so it's either that or he's just incorrect because he's I'm not ontological an Objectivist so I don't really know how to break it down any more simply than that we can go through his response piece if you want and I can do it point by point but it will be long and boring but yeah you want to crack into this video or did you guys have something to say there I haven't actually read it was a written response then or a video yes this forum wasn't it yeah it's a it's a written response okay y'all haven't actually looked to that yet so I don't know anything about it I just heard the first time one year this guy was yes it was last night when I had the live stream there so yeah yeah I mean he just he doesn't comprehend what I'm saying and it's just evident and he represents a kind of thinking that I really don't like I mean philosophy ideally should help you develop razorsharp common sense it shouldn't bog your own thinking down with unnecessary complexity and that's what I see with a person like Phil oh it's nice it's not complicated understand for me the qualities that I value and thought I value conciseness I value clarity you know I value common sense thinking do you think philosophy and stuff like that then that it should sort of ground you to sort of like a sort of center point yeah harder for you to understand things then you're not learning philosophy right yeah that's how I feel about anyway guys I really know that much about philosophy that's I mean surely you know it should be just common common sense you know well yeah I mean because philosophy is not common sense but philosophy should really just be an aid to help you develop good common sense like right philosophy shouldn't make you your thoughts become just unnecessarily cluttered and complicated it's like that's just putting you into some weird little esoteric camp where you're just gonna communicate with other philosophical people like I mean you guys have seen me in those discussions it's like I have a problem going to those philosophical levels when it's necessary but for me I fucking avoid that shit like the plague I mean I I always opted for the smallest word that I can choose for example that's just one rule that I use there's often bigger words that can choose but it's like philosophy isn't about sounding smart it's not about it's not about trying to be any particular way it's just about honing your common sense a lot of people disagree with that but that is the value that I see in philosophy you what you ultimately want to do is be able to just think clearly and philosophy will help you with that if you learn it correctly like interact all together as well like a kind of sorry you cut out like with all these different philosophical ideas and stuff surely they should be some kind of connection between them all rather than you know like this idea is is the one you should believe rather than this idea rather than you know another idea kind of thing doesn't seem to make any sense to me like with philosophy should I follow what you're saying well like it should be consistent with everything else that you believe your philosophy good yeah your overall world you should be consistent for sure yeah that's what I mean I mean once it's inconsistent then the whole structure of the thing is just compromised and if you hold a bunch of positions there should be some kind of a common thread of like logic or something between them should be connected yeah and I mean it should do is like it should put you in a frame of mind where you're just trying to clearly understand what's being said and clearly and concisely you think about that like I mean I like I try my best to avoid like rambling on for minutes and minutes at a time you know it's like I'd be able to just kind of make it quickly yeah oh it's just better to listen to as well as know if somebody's listening to you I think is rambling on for ages they're just gonna zone out eventually saying yeah and it's like people who can have good philosophical conversations you can make it's like you know how you would see maybe someone like a mechanic or like a guy who does like I don't know like stone masonry or construction or something like this like you ever see those guys talk to each other it's the wrench or like do this and you know when you get an explanation from someone like that about how to do something it's clear as daylight put this against the screw push the screw through tighten it through all the way well if you don't it'll wobble it's like just the level of explanation is so simple and so quick and so obvious and philosophy should help you think about with that same kind of level of clarity yeah it shouldn't make you like question like weird shit that just bogs you down lets me a question does ask yourself know he is a part of the vegan debate death squad yeah the squad that's been formed over the past few months how am i a part of it if you're a vegan doing debates on the internet you're part of the vegan debate death squad pretty much of it you got a choice okay you're one 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NonZeroSum
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Re: Transcripts for sourcing.

Post by NonZeroSum »

right let's play this video it's clear let's do it it's called why we're not vegan by the Zen dude show it's a couple of Zen dudes okay okay I'm so down let's get into it hey there guys what's going on Zen dude nation welcome back to another episode of the Zen dude show just to quickly clear up any confusion we're still doing ask the zen dudes but we wanted to send you the Tuesday show to be a more general term so that sometimes we can do ask oh my just fossil in a bit just gonna I want he right there so so we're Zen dudes right and so a lot of people think that like they associate like beings animals n lifestyle you know with like a culture did you say something Isaac nope I think that's Chris I think he said so Zen that would not eat meat and so we've gotten questions like yo you're Zen dude you guys are you vegan say you're vegetarians yeah and we're like no we're not vegans we're not vegetarians we are full-on omnivores and this episode is kind of explaining our reasoning for why we live this lifestyle and sharing with you guys some benefits some positive effects yeah it's really okay pause yet with this kind of stuff I don't know what they mean when they say theirs then but like I assume they're saying they're like kind of spiritual on some level like they care about like I don't know whether it's like meditating which meditating is awesome I totally promote that but you know it's just funny when people with concepts like enlightenment and like spiritual growth and all of this and you're like yeah but like fuck the animals you just stab animals if you want to it's like not that didn't sound very spiritual did you see Carrie Cobb Strong's video any idea really I was talking to him just a bit the other good streams in yeah really yeah the girls dads and he talked to this girl about spirituality and stuff and gone to the conversation of veganism and got to a point where she you know said well and then I think she went away did she then her dad came back to Joey and said what have you been showing my daughter like whoa why are you but you're making a cry and stuff like this like this is it just like that was just laying into him was about to punch him getting really violent but a spiritual festival oh sorry I just I tripped out a little second or so the guy at the spiritual festival was getting mad at Joey for tell him to go vegan and was getting like aggravated and just breaking all the principles of spirituality go mad because Joey showed his daughter slaughterhouse footage and said oh yeah and how like I was gonna say how old is she yeah like how what was she like Oh cuz like even with kids I still say do it it's just there's a certain point where they're so young that it's I think not appropriate to show them anything violence like really at all yeah if she wasn't like I don't want it for real join three Creelman yeah yeah you know I wouldn't picture Joey fuckin doing that either I'm sure that he would be fair and who he shows something to this is so funny the legume annatee he says fuck the way they say fuck the vegan debate death squad joined the illumina at legume annatee let's see all these different ways whether eating meat or no meat or dairy etc etc yeah etc and also we probably get asked a lot to just cuz this is a Fitness channel and we're talking about physiques you know people want to know like how do you guys maintain a low body fat but still a good amount of muscle cuz Brendan I also recognize we are not body builders like if we would stand beside like who's popular on YouTube like Jeff seid Jeff seid would look much bigger and fuller than we are but this conversation is just to tackle this question of our kind of take on being vegan or vegetarian and then you guys can take that information and apply it to your own life yeah all right so where we got here what's the first talking point yeah well right here what up Zen dudes why are you not vegan and wait are we are we we're Navi we're not vegan we're not eating we're not vegan we're not we're not we meet we like to eat meat so much that we mean almost every day not gonna lie to you I'm gonna eat some meat in a couple of hours and so we all I got there you know what is that a personal pleasure though great start there no the good stuff you know no and I again it's like we like it I like it it's like that is just that argument that justifies anything I wish the first question was something like guys what do you think about pigs in gas chambers how do you feel about exploding fish's eyeballs out of their head by trawling the oceans like baby chickens into a blender yeah or a gas chamber people people need to get have these questions that it shouldn't this be like why are you vegan it should just be like why you supporting death well and and when you can form an argument for your position that's as simple as you know should babies be put in gas chambers I think everyone would get on the same page but apparently humans can be a little ridiculous yeah who agrees with the baby chick mincing really does anyone really agree with it it's just so obviously not it's funny that anyone would would think that's appropriate I wonder who the first guy to come up with that idea was watching someone is designing that machine like yeah it's design machines of minced up baby chicks cool yeah fun bets wanna have money yeah yeah but Jerry said um it's gonna be a stream with me seen anyway so yeah grab a moon okay yeah I'm just gonna send them the link they're kind of wearing cuz he knows me and Emma anyway today here's that chewy carp strong cool we're not gonna fuckin gonna invite some Rando on your stream who who are you bringing onto my channel never heard of the guy you did it for like I gave it a solid three weeks Danny give it a solid I was giving you the benefit of the doubt dude I honestly don't remember yeah well I think my experience with like trying to go vegan is basically a perfect example of why I don't follow that lifestyle and in this conversation we're gonna cover everything from like the potential benefits of going vegan or and also the benefits of eating meat and talk about ethics yeah I also think that just this is what's coming to my head right now guys like this who are into fitness I wouldn't be surprised if they tried veganism for health reasons and didn't actually have an ethical understanding and I think that is a big reason that we have a like for the recidivism rate from veganism being what it is yeah yeah totally go vegan for ethical reasons are I'm sure that when we do research will find this more likely to stay vegan yeah hundred bucks if you cage for the whole thing you've got nothing like there to you know just stop you slipping back if you say oh well what a cheat day it doesn't matter because it's just what it becomes like the same kind of thing as like how likely is this person to like keep going to the gym or something like this I mean yeah yeah it's not like how likely is this person to maintain an understanding that it's wrong to just just stab yeah yeah I totally agree with that I think yeah I don't think we need to study for that I think it's yeah many people that have gone and gone back yeah the other day I was and walking over work and I just had this the submit I was just walking past these restaurants and I smell like the smell of like battered fish or something or some some kind of seafood and I just I just used to love the taste of that stuff and the smell it was just like mmm it's just like amazing but I would never enter again in not a million years because I know there's powerfully good plant-based options it tastes exactly the same you know so ever how long have you now been in vegan and nearly four years so before you and do you find that the smell still appeals to you I just no no no not really the meat no especially not like stuff like bacon I can't stand it I can't stand the smell yeah it's - the smell most of the time isn't the meat that it's just the the seasoning the smell of the cooking the smell of the cooking is the smell of burning flesh for sure it depends what you're cooking though if you're cooking something with a little yeah I'm gonna go doc rather than the flesh well I think the part that's grossing us out is definitely not the herbs maybe is the point like I'm just saying that it's a little weird because I don't know if you guys will relate to this I find that the foods that I see often like that you I mean you smell bacon all the time you're like at some place in the morning and they fry up fucking bacon or you're like out for breakfast and there's people with baked like bacon is just this especially in fucking Canada I mean you're gonna smell bacon over here so I find the things that I've smelt a lot of sense going vegan and I've like had a lot of kind of reference experience of being like hmm there's that smell oh yeah that's a massacred holocaust corpse like those are the kind of things that the smell seems to not actually on out like just a literal like visceral level even make me feel desire for the thing anymore the only time I ever feel desire for flesh from smell is when I'm not paying attention and I smell some type of animal product that I have not smelt in like a very long time or something haven't smelted since going vegan and the only memories I have associated with it are positive you know I mean okay yeah so you don't know anything fix it but notice it's a someone cooked up like me like gammon I have not gammon for years you might go oh yeah like just sir like something just some weird shit you don't see a lot of they used to like like tandoori chicken or some weird shit like that um I'll add that once with fish and chips just things that you don't smell as much of they had time to like get used to like associating that smell with what it actually is now when I smell bacon now it actually is gross to me like I feel the roasted out by the smell of bacon yeah yeah I think it's just cuz it makes your clothes really smell as well just anything that makes you close now just lingers it's probably not worth putting your body I mean it's gonna be yeah it's fucking gnarly you guys ever work in fast-food I know you have Emma but you did vegan stuff right like have have you guys ever done fast food like greasy fast food like like an Arby's or Kim's or whatever you know over there yeah I used to work in like Burger King you know 17 18 you know us and what about you Chris no no I never worked with food at school so gross man like honestly just this is what it reminds me of when you're talking about bacon and the smell and just it clings to you like the grease in the air from working in some of those places with just fryers and just frying all these animal products and frying like cheeses and just cheesy grease fumes like it'll fuck your skin up so bad it gets your like acne and shit if you work in a place like that it just makes this was gross you smell like it's fucking gnarly I didn't like it I worked at Arby's that was the worst of all um when I worked at Arby's was like definitely pretty noticeable wasn't like but I never had like fucking ridiculous acne yeah yeah because I used to have quite bad I don't mean from I think it was from mainly from milk and dairy and just like literally from where the fumes are wafting but how come our accent I want one of those cool avatars that you have had how come on the video as avatars yeah yeah I know it looks like you put in way too much effort like we have these little cartoons and yours it's like this professional photo shoot yours actually looks very good quite handsome like I just flew a cop in my hair's not been done what time is it where you're at right now it's 6:30 a.m. I got up at 5:00 and I was I was debating from a debate I was having debates about palm oil on my on Facebook could you send them all that stuff I Sun use um a circle debate to get I don't think it's a productive debate I think it's I don't know very people have a very emotional attachment to this Parimal thing and I try to point out inconsistencies and double standards with other products that cause yeah yeah my Integra culture is has problems I mean we can't avoid them and I think to say arbitrarily select palm oil and say palm oil is bad but you know ignoring rubber plantations bananas and mangos thousands of animals killed in wheat production for bread I think that it just makes veganism impossible Intuit to achieve and confusing I don't know I might be wrong I don't know I generally agree with a lot of what you're saying there were you arguing with flesh eaters about it or vegans no I don't get into the palm old debate with fleshy areas it's usually vegan behind a person yeah because that's kind of like a rule I have almost like I'm not gonna debate animal testing or like killing insects or palm oil or some shit like that with a flesh-eater it's like no I'll talk to I'll talk those things with vegans who are actually yet already going coming from a place of because if you're a flesh eater you don't if you don't understand that it's wrong to stab a cow for fucking no reason then how are you capable of making a more complicated ethical decision like if some experiment that's like vital for some treatment require justified stabbing a cow you know it's like if you don't get that bass can't talk about the complex that it's like trying to talk about trigonometry with someone who doesn't get the two plus two equals four do you think it's funny that it's a lot of the advocates against Parma are actually non vegans because palm oil hurts endangered species non vegans are more likely to grab it cause because you know chimpanzees or orangutangs and tigers but they're you know they've got a stake on their plate which i think is I have you know quite hypocritical to say the least yeah yeah kissed a bunch of people off once that a came out to a University of Guelph event and they had some kind of like environmental thing and they're serving animal products and I just raised my hand and I was like isn't it kind of like massively hypocritical that we have you know a table filled with just environment destroying animal corpses when we're talking about how to save the earth oh my god I wouldn't have liked that and and yet would with palm oil like I don't know if I've ever even talked about that on my channel but it seems to me that targeting palm oil specifically doesn't make sense because even if somehow you get a successful boycott of palm oil off the ground everyone's like we're never buying palm oil again it's like okay well now you boil economically unviable enviable or that it is how palm oil as the fundamental issue they're necessarily people that realize about palm oil is it is the most sustainable of all the oils so if you boycott palm oil that it's gonna replace it with something unless sustainable and you know like rapeseed oil or something and caused more damage so Chris what are they gonna do the animals that are set up shop inside the palm oil plantations that have been there for 50 years there's wildlife in there they're gonna destroy the palm oil plantations q11 to make way for canola oil Joey I feel like you've become more sassy lately I've become less oh yeah oh yeah but I think it's coming it's coming out a little bit more like recently but usually I in my past there was a lot more he wasn't I am a yes you a lot more professional now no I just think that I sometimes just the tone you have when you're like so aware of why an argument is bullshit and you just throw some like sassy little market that makes me laugh like every point in time some great faces as well like I've got their footage from the video that we get but you showed the policemen there the cows in there in the truck and you kind of show him and be like looks like your dinner a little smile you almost are kind of like trolling them but you're kind of trying them in a like laugh with them not at them kind of way so it still works yeah yeah I think break being white harder when you're talking about something serious is important like you know if you're going to tell someone the truth you better make them less so light-hearted in your talk it sort of breaks that barrier especially when you're on the streets talking to people you already they already feel attacked no matter what no matter if you're as nice as Gandhi they're already gonna feel attacked you know so you have to sort of bring it down you know people relax then you know why you question their morality yes yeah I mean I I think that's totally true if you're doing like personal person-to-person interaction trying to actually persuade an individual like when I do is a little different on the tube but I mean you guys kind of know how I talk and I'm actually just in the conversation like you definitely want to be more like just like jovial and like you kind of want to turn the absurdity of eating animals into a joke that you're like both laughing at together you know I mean does that make sense yeah yeah definitely definitely because if they can if they can laugh at their own you know inconsistencies that's good it's it's sort of like it breaks that barrier and makes you less defensive and more likely to change I think yes oh yeah oh really absolutely and then later on they can think it free for themselves and then that's where the real change happens like yeah do what they like you yeah yep yeah see that's it's it sounds to me like the fundamentally ungratified aspect of doing Street activism where you know like for me I get gratified just seeing the comments I'll be like okay well like you smoke that guy and the vote ratio is brutal honestly everyone gets what happened but with you guys you don't get to fucking reap the rewards yeah just I'm carnist Soph into the wind and just know that some fraction of them are like well that guy it's me I'm gonna go vegan now all of our posts all of my tracks that guy that I talked to you that person I talked to I couldn't really care less whether they go vegan or whether they don't but the 5,000 people that watch that video let's just say 5% them and non vegans and let's just say 10 of them go vegan because of that one video so my interaction with that person the effect of that and the gratification I get from that is times by the magnitude of you know what I mean I actually don't know you mean I think that yeah I'll take but you can probably kind of see what I mean where if we're like say you didn't have a youtube channel and you're out doing that and you're kind of pinning your hopes on like you want you want to see some change happen in front of you I'm just saying with the street activism you like I'm not ripping on I think it's good it's fucking necessary and awesome and I love the videos but it's just some level of like if you care a lot about seeing that person go being in no channel you just be a bit dissatisfied you never get to see it but it is happening statistically you know some amount of them are going home and like looking at the info you handed them think about it and like fuck I am gonna go vegan sometimes sometimes you see those people again though and they actually tell you that they've made a change and that's so I've had a few of those actually and sir yeah good you go ahead you just have done oh no I was just gonna say our job I always told me it was especially straight activist that our job isn't to turn everyone vegan our job is to plant the seeds and that's what we plant the seeds and we leave them in them and and we're like gardeners you know so yeah well how cause it's a juried I mean we did ser Cuba tree yesterday Norrish right and this guy came up to us and was actually telling this group of girls about what the footage was about because he'd actually seen at the previous month he's actually gone vegetarian but he's gonna go vegan like after I talk to him again for the second time I had the key with the food event so which is pretty cool because no it's just such a small city that you see the same people you know you just see them again and again and again then you can have these multiple interactions with me which is pretty cool that's hard if you're doing the covert filming like oh I do some people don't know they've got 150,000 views on my channel correct me correct me again if I'm wrong but surely the reason that you do that is because the camera changes how they react if they see it that is a lot of the reason I'll get I get really good interactions like that in a public place it's fine to do there's no legality around it I did have a small I had a bit of a morality issue with it I was like is this is this cooler but then I looked at the greater good and the greater good that it and it's so much more than this small you know privacy thing that's study you know but the amount the amount of good that it's doing outweighs anything and I don't put anything on there that I think you know could you know somehow what's the word put the person at risk you say something information I don't put that yeah I don't put that on it's it's just it's just vegan you're not there to look yeah and I mean like I mean maybe this I'm not sure if this is the best like argument or something but I'm sure that if someone told you like I'm really unhappy that I'm in that video I don't want that on the Internet you'd probably just take it down I've done that with videos videos that's like you take yours down I'll take mine down yeah it depends I hear that if okay yeah let's let's hear it's a rate if it's if it's a reasonable request you know I've had a reasonable well yeah III hear that lady that I interviewed that and felt really silly afterwards but then she was nine months pregnant she was about to drop any day now and it was really making her anxious she's like please he's hit on down the video I'm about to drop and I was like I'm not even gonna bother arguing a few I'm just gonna take it down and which is accepted if you which would she have accepted if you block their face out or something then that's another option I I could have said 11 she sounded really sort of she sound like the you know these sort of anxious yeah actually really a lot of anxiety and stuff yeah no I had a guy um who was I clicked baited potato and I said a farmer on drugs destroys vegan activist I I couldn't tell whether he was on drugs or whatever but it actually did quite well for my new standards and he actually emailed me and he said you know to suggest that I'm on drugs is quite a low blow I mean I don't use any drugs and he goes up and he asked me to take the video down and I didn't I said uh I don't I didn't actually reply to it I just changed the title to drunk farmer because he was actually drunk he wasn't on drugs um the reason I do only is you were gonna take a jab it looked like he was fucked in some way his eyes would be looked at that conversation was so loud everyone can hear it he's like walking up to activist jumping around like come on mate oh yeah there's cameras everywhere do what you think that you know gonna get put on the internet and it was a completely harmless discussion anyway it was quite funny he's sounding a bit ridiculous it was nothing bad so I was just like you know I thought about it waited up and I thought nah I'll keep that up yeah is it is there is there actually a legal issue or is it just a courtesy thing like is is it actually illegal to but I'm finding public of someone even if it's still nice just it's you know I mean if it's a direct versus you can yeah cuz I don't receive yeah the CCTV where I sorry so it's we've got a bit of a time delay here it's bit hard to tell the idea I know and for the chapter all like why do you keep cutting in on each other it's like well you can't tell that you've cut it on some till you've talked for a second then you realize everyone is speaking me okay because there's CCTV running 24 hours today through the city centre people are already getting filmed they're already getting film police officers can be filmed you can film a police officer without asking and that is like they're like the the authority and you can just start filming them as long as you're in public place as long as it's nothing of a sexual nature as long as it's nothing to do with yeah okay someone's child or like but public filming is fun look at Facebook yeah I don't know those I don't know those laws but like assuming that that's accurate like yeah I mean then there's not a legal issue I guess the courtesy thing if it's just a courtesy issue then yeah I would really just come down to the specific situation like if I feel that I that that person deserves to not be in a video yeah I mean yesterday I had a really good experience for somebody at the cube of truth and he saw me filming I was just sort of like walking around the parameter of the cube just just filming in general and he saw me and he was talking to one of the other activists and he just saw me he's like that girl's filming me she and he came straight over to me and said look can you please delete the video and I was like no he was and he had a kid and everything oh is it because you know of we've got a kid so ever it's just this little kid in a pram they had and he was just said look I'm asking you politely can you just please delete the video and I'll tell you why afterwards I was like um no he was very sorry and I'm just confused did did were you did you film an interview with him no just filming like the parameter film you just like them just like it some b-roll yeah just like you know just filming the parameters of the cube and just everyone in general having somnus though I think and he said to me look I'll tell you why after I've deleted the video I was like you know what I've got so much footage anyway I'll just delete it because it doesn't really matter you know it's just b-roll and he said can I can i watch you delete it I need to see and I was like okay this this guy's what we got a good reason I'm just gonna I'm just gonna delete it and then the see what he has to say and I told him look I don't need to know I don't need to know I'll just tell you you know cuz he was asking he wanted to know about the footage it was seeing and the cube and everything like that and then you see he seemed like genuinely genuinely interested in it so I deleted the video showed him that was deleting it and afterwards he said well thank you very much and the reason I asked you to leave the video was because like at a comic was 15 or 20 years ago he he lost his job and his life was like on the relay on the rocks basically and we could fund of a job and he started his own business and his business was actually trading and meat it's like restaurants and stuff and the reason he did want to be filmed was because he has all these contacts the stuff he doesn't want people to know that he was interested in veganism and he actually took the a vCard he want to follow up on it he said that it makes total sense for me like I only see like the final product that the meat product and goes to the and I supply and stuff I didn't know that all this other stuff existed behind the scenes and it's genuinely shocked me and I'm gonna look into it I don't know if we could actually go vegan and I told him look Lister you can still be vegan I'll do what you're doing and if I could planted the seeds there that you know there's enough momentum now and the vegan in veganism you know that vegan food products of stuff is such a massive boom going on at the moment hopefully I planted that seed with him as well you know he took the card and he was really grateful that I deleted the video so I suppose that the gist of that is you know sometimes if you just cooperate what can works in your favor but that was just wait oh yeah yeah I hear that it's not that you saw some like legit reason necessarily to delete it you just kind of guy a courtesy and it happened to just like working out for you then he considered what you're saying he did seem like genuine ease like anxious about it like I really thought would be filmed it wasn't just like everyone yeah it's also one of those things that like if a lot of people did it you'd kind of have to just say like sorry but like we I can't be like losing all this footage everyone who always tells me to stop filming but it's like if it's just the one outlying person and they're like super concerned it's like I'll just make fucking exception just whatever who cares yes I'm always just gonna film school always gonna film people regardless of you know I'm not gonna ask them for now I'm just gonna film them if they say look I don't want to be films then so be you know if I'm just gonna why I all know because I'm in such a small town it would just if I put it up someone will see it and then I'll just get shit today let's get out of town and bit yeah we'll get some video footage of Joey in his wood constructed home and expose his Odyssey to the world of mercy well you know I have to think about that for a second I was like because it was that absurd and I was just like wait a second like where would this argument actually work well in what context would this work especially when it comes to injustice like murder like animal murder like if that was stabbing a dog to death from arcanist and summon someone who criticized me I threw it back at him and said hey were you live in a wooden house I love I love picturing someone who's been like accused of murder on the stand like using that as a defense but what houses the hole to be sent to the judge but your chocolate bar contains palm oil there you go yeah we're supposed to be watching a video let's go back to fuckin I actually can't I can't I have to get my room that can go into Sydney too a little Sydney tour but yeah I'll be in touch and we'll do this again soon yes fanny pack my fanny pack I'll pack that fanny pack with the cards of truths and hand them out and the wood of exploitation and the palm oil of evil bye bye guys big smile on my face a little bit of veganism and you know eating animals what if I ask you like I'll ask you why are you not it why Brandon why are you not a vegan all right I'm gonna ask each other back first we're sure so what's that Chris do you say something wooden houses thing this is a very long written answer if I were just gonna answer straight up like all the reasons I'm gonna do a highlight and I do a little highlight reel of like the reasons where I'm not vegan all right the number one reason is I just want to maintain a lean a muscular physique with the least amount of effort possible I've tried going vegan and I know to do so to hit my macros like I want to so getting enough protein in my diet and keeping my carbohydrates and fat down I would have to supplement my diet a ton I would have to like be very like minimal when it comes to like my vegan diet and so just purely for selfish reasons then basically a convenience thing I friended it out for a second there oh it's just like any which I mean no he thinks it's not the most efficient way of eating like to be vegan isn't the most efficient way of eating to maintain his lean muscle mass basically he can't be bothered to do any reason vini insane for me it's like I don't know if it's like I just don't don't have the knowledge to actually confirm if it's easier or harder to maintain lean muscle mass as a vegan or not a vegan but it seems to me like it's clearly doable so I don't see the difficulty involved as an excuse fucking worth it right if you think it's unethical to murder animals then surely not persuade and I'm not persuaded it's more difficult than want actual evidence not just like an anecdote from this guy who's got a clear bias for carnism no and you know as like of course we need lots of fruits and vegetables etc etc but a lot of the proteins gonna come through supplementation through taking protein powders through taking different protein bars and I know the the argument other side of the blood of the conversation is like oh you can get enough that's just saying I was just saying mainline the protein just just no needle just boil it put it into your veins that's what you have to do as a vegan to stay nutritionally satisfied yeah all the time and yeah if you take supplements like because it's not unnatural like it's it's not good you know protein injections sorry I just realized that the video wasn't playing on the livestream so I don't know get people just hearing the sound and not seeing the video you say okay enough protein through eating plants and like that's true but along with that comes a lot of carbs and fats which makes it hard and farts and farts oh don't even get shots though thoughts are a problem would you agree no I would say I fight a lot when I first went vegan when my body was flushing out since then it's not a big chili or something apparently used to do with like not chewing your food properly especially like beans that kind of stuff would you that just me then so I just have a flatulence problem that's not vegan problem it's just a beam problem isn't it either way lots do not mean picture being gas chambers next point is logic still has he gone oh yeah I'm here that's just trippin people in the chat sorry we start in the parts and I just read you guys talking about and so when you're getting all the carbs and fats along with that protein it's just too many calories I end up eating at a calorie surplus yeah and my mouth stinks dude so bad yeah I'm surprised that uh that wasn't my number one reason yeah the number one reason why I'm not be guilty and Enki handle all my farts that's not true it's basically just a physique thing and in addition no actually it's just the physique thing yeah I just don't listen the one reason that's just his physique he's saying selfishness basically yeah cuz don't I look ripped that's basically it you just Li 2010 research yeah that much I want to eat Whole Foods are many animals I think the human body is very good at processing meat as long as you have a balanced diet outside of the meat that you eat so I'm ok with it what about you Dan why are you ok with animal slaughter I'm okay I'm down with that yeah I mean balance though yeah balance I mean yeah it's all about this is just all about they just care about their physiques small kind of like the health argument rather than an ethical argument I think the ticket get into the ethics part of it a little bit as well so yeah they say about the ethics of I do raise tech piss really quickly and go pee hey Peterson oh yeah all right yeah do you wait to keep playing it or yeah yeah yeah we can't stop yeah I'm gonna be like if you play it it'll just play the whole time exactly you just talk about shit oh sorry I couldn't hear that we'd say just asking if you do any of the street stuff yeah yeah I'm out every single weekend almost yes I'm doing a second and you do the same kind of things I don't do as many well yeah I do the interviews but not I just don't generally film as much because I want to film them so don't speak to people and do as this with anonymous for the voiceless um I do it well I run a an organization called Devon animal save whoa no no much about you Chris you run an animal save I think you may have told this to me but these conversations can all kind of meld a bit in your hair yeah yeah I think I think I briefly said say yes if we started that but then we we do outreach tools in like three different cities we do protests and like horse racing and that kind of thing we do we are the Cuba truth Earthlings experience I do University and college talks on veganism making a documentary yeah pretty much do you that's pretty great yeah and the documentary I feel like you mentioned that before to me also how is that coming along yeah really great did you know the Konev yeah what are they do just give me give me like a rundown okay so basically the whole reason I kind of started on the journey to veganism is because of the bank Goldfinger they are to meet your meat video on their album and I watched that and I decided I don't want anything to do with this and they had some animal rights songs the other side listening to bands like propaganda and oh he's kind of a punk rock kind of oh yeah yeah yeah so it's all about kind of like how I was influenced by music to go vegan so now I want to find out how veganism has influenced music and the musicians lives so I've been doing it since last May and I went to LA recently in spurts like Moby and Kat Von D and and have do you do you financially have everything you need to make that all happen or no I mean yeah like you'd think that vegans would crowdfund that I should maybe put out something about that do you it's like well I'm gonna be doing a second where's funder because what happened was I self-funded it for a year then I got a donation to be able to pay for the the us trip which was really good and then a run a crowdfunded but the problem was at that time we didn't really have a trailer we didn't really have any of the big names like Moby and Kat Von D and all these kind of big people yes yeah involved I think it's just really bad timing so yes so want to start another one and because we've got plenty of stuff to make an epic trailer now and we're going back now so going back to LA in November because mobis got like a vegan music festival so we're gonna get a cup of out we should be pretty out there okay so yeah yeah so the moment we we've got a little bit of funds left just to get around the UK but you know we're trying to chat to someone about helping us out for the u.s. trip and then another crowdfunding did you see sweet yeah let me know I don't think I can do much but I'll definitely share that out when you do that I'll be really appreciated my other thing any hope kind of gets people will be awesome totally why'd you say Emma we should do a collab video Chris about that and ever you know get a little bit more but that just reminded me like a the film everything reminder and crowdfunding you reminded me of em did you see em beaver at doing crowdfunding and ad vegan adverts to go in the cinema oh yeah yeah for the film's up yet yeah sorry what when you go to the cinema to see films and the other adverts before they could oh really they've got in there they've got a donor who's willing to basically double anything that you donate he'll double it basically so it's pretty cool it's gonna happen it's so exciting I mean yeah it's been a met I think is this amazing that there was a go vegan world has been putting up posters everywhere in you know bus stops and always kind of stuff about kind of no ditch dairy and dairy separates mother and children and you know the advertising border having to pass them because they're not lying they're like well lying India this is what happens we can't say no to the advert yeah I think it's pretty awesome I love that they would actually get adverts into movies did you guys hear about I feel like it might have been PETA maybe but they did a whole train station oh no it wasn't hear that it was in the UK I see people but maybe Peter did in another place for those definitely one in the UK and might be a vegan world actually it was um King's Cross maybe they gather did air every single possible space pretty crazy thing to do yeah I mean that's it's sweet cuz then it's just this huge like you just have walked into vegan go on you're fucking stuck here waiting for your 360 directions animal shit everywhere you have to close your eyes to avoid it you know shit's happening and when there's huge posters saying like baby chicks excitement like please don't kill me vegan posters are so funny because it's like it's just there make the most obvious like simple moral statements ever like don't eat me or like I am NOT food yet people actually struggle with that if this when you get it when you get is amazing is most simple thing in the world but then I guess yeah it's not people's for just been brainwashed in since they were born so yeah I mean well it's it's weird because generally speaking it's not people's fault so I don't like I don't assumed guilt but when someone demonstrates to me that they understand what's up and they just don't care it's their lack of like mental fortitude that's the problem that's when I start losing respect because now it's like well why won't you do what's right and how would I feel if you're doing that about an issue that affected like my family or someone else like I don't respect people who treat ethics like that who once they understand an ethical issue are like I just don't give a fuck cuz I'm lazy I think he's I think it's really hard for people they like one of my really really good friends like he understands everything I've spoken to him like a million times he said there was a you know debate you know against people he would literally be on the vegan side but he does have you know straight out and midst to me he said look I'm still a habit I'm just fucking lazy I just can't you know I know I'll go in an order and I just can't do it but I fully agree with you you know I decide I respect his obviously he'd at least doesn't try and bullshit me he had fully admits he's a hypocrite I mean I don't know mentality already call and understand it Oh like somebody oh oh yeah yeah I know how the fuck they do it like I'll tell you the kind of things that I say to people like if I get a message from someone that's like just not taking morality seriously like here's what I got today I won't say the person's name what are your thoughts on beyond meat I totally switch if it were affordable but what do you know about the quality what are cheaper alternatives are brands and I just said I don't have a moral issue with synthetic meat I still wouldn't eat it for health or aesthetic reasons no sense raising my cancer risk heart disease or obesity and I said no offense but I'm always honest with people and some appreciate it if you're saying your ethics are contingent on a tasty and nearly identical meat substitute you are into ethics in any serious way or be weak minded and lacking willpower a strong minded ethically concerned person would simply say fuck that shit I'm not paying someone to stab an animal past the veggies and then I just linked him a bunch of like good vegan brands and like fucking there's some good cookbooks and challenge 22 yeah you would think that they wouldn't you think people would be like it doesn't yeah it doesn't matter if I come back I'll find a replacement this is wrong I'm just going to stop doing it well a lot of them respect the honesty too like some people think I'm a dick but I mean this guy here is just like fair enough on the ethics point and thanks for the info you know it's like yeah see any point in like lying to people what about shit's like just we should be serious about the ethics I don't have respect for that attitude that just does like I just don't care about ethics or like this is something I'll do if you make it easy enough for me it's like who are thinking in a very just weak minded way and that's part of why I don't have like confirm one like this why I'm amazed at the individual attention that you guys will put into people because for me it's like when someone demonstrates himself to be stupid or they can't keep pace with me or they're annoying me it's like I'm just I'm done with it I'm like you're wrong I just I don't have bringing myself down to your mental level to try to reason with you about this if you can't comprehend go talk to fucking Emma or someone who will actually have the patience for you take your scrubs nothing like fuck you going speak to Chris well I mean I don't know some of naughty like I don't want to paint it like that likes we talked to some of the same people we all talked to friended like semi casually like I mean I just will have little message exchanges yeah yeah yeah I wish I really wished I could have spoken to friended for longer I'm sure that we can get them on it's probably just chilling it if you want yeah it's a kind of thing where I really can't listen to voice any more I just can't I know but the thing is about the logic of it because it about veganism I want to talk about veganism I want to tell him what happens to the animals context I want to actually talk to him gay hey this is what happens you think that's actually good do you agree with that yeah I was showing the footage on the screen yeah yeah exactly you won't watch it you think I could watch Jen he doesn't want to watch it why not agent we like stood outside of slaughterhouses filming they don't know they like well look at this it's looking because what I find with people when I talk to people is that you know they go through that was it's like the three stages isn't it you get the right okay yeah you know like deny or whatever it just makes me laugh because it's like deprogramming someone yeah yeah it really is it totally is so what I normally notice says when I speak to people they get those because I think he just went into defensive mode if I'm honest because we know what I said to him like you know oh do you need me to survive and he said none of your business means you know he's on a defensive but the thing is he's defensive because he doesn't know what to say but once you break that down I find you have really odd equal after that once they get over that hurdle you know you can have really really good conversations that I kind of wish I've got to that point and just you know really talk about you know talk about his thoughts on factory farming he's already said he doesn't approve of it or I know what doesn't like about it because and start from there and build from there yeah because that's the kind of conversation you have Cuba true friends isn't it when people get old offensive and they and are you making me feel guilty and stuff and you then you start asking them why and that's when you get to the good stuff the good like the juicy bits and then they start to open up a lot more because some you meet both apart and use you screen gay look dude no one no one approves of this shit this is horrible you think you really think it's as good and so like no of course you don't you you're clearly an open-minded person you clearly love animals they yeah okay well let's talk about it you know and then some of your defenses yeah I mean with your one with friended I wasn't even like paying attention the full time I normally would be but I was just too focused on I just want to fucking get into debunking I know and I listen back and I was like I was kind of talking over friend it kind of I was like massively talking to her friend but he was just he wanted to get into like defining all these like terms and it's just like I can't get bogged down with this right now like I just want this guy to answer the fucking question and just realize he's either they're talking about an irrelevant term or he's misrepresenting my position and I see a comment that popped up the second we started talking about that actually from Tim I'm haven't read yet the philosophical vegan is an apologist to the nth degree really made me realize how not to be in compassion and centrism go too far comment but he was definitely not receiving the point that I was making and he definitely has massive ego investment in his intellect like that guy's not going to be acknowledging any kind of error anytime soon to you guys I just tell people the chicks get minced yeah well the other thing is like find the angle or the thing or the aspect of veganism that if you want to put time into it that you feel you could hone best like if you've got a mind that's good for you know ethics and logic and stuff do that if you've got good interpersonal skills and you just you like have like good like you know emotional reading and you're just good with people like hone that for veganism you know there's different this to be good at I never meant is good at all of them there's some like generally all around pretty good people but you know find a area get like good at I think I just want his people I just talk from the heart I just yeah it's like oh you're Oskie said to talk about the animals in the way then they would want to be spoken to hey that's kind of what I do sorry Chris I'm sorry you dropped for me can you just row yeah man yeah I kind of follow something kind of carry your Oskie said where he said you should speak up for the animals in the way that they want to be speaking about you know if you were in their position how would you want someone to speak up for you and that's kind of what I do I just speak from my heart and say look this is bullshit you don't need bacon there's a place and get over it that's correct nobody in a nicer turn I mean that's kind of the angle I like when people start just going off on or logic stuff I'm not I don't care you there is a replacement for bacon take it like kindness Trump yeah it's it's weird because I actually relate to that to an extent like I also get somewhat annoyed with having to go into like huge philosophical depth to make a point as easy as don't put a chick in a blender like I totally get what you're saying there I just think also on some level that like eight about whether veganism is like a correct position is gonna happen no matter what oh you should just put out that's fucking case that we can put out do do some shake on it do you find a tool that conceal you've done loads of debates do you find a lot of people that you're actually debating they actually give a shit about veganism or they want to cut or they want to talk about is the the logic behind it they don't actually care about veganism as a philosophy I don't like to make too many statements about the hearts of others because it's hard to know what someone has in their heart like you don't know what's driving people a lot of the times in current thinking about veganism you just wants to talk about yeah I mean there's there are people who just want to it's like they are so lacking any connection to the actual issue and just want to like philosophize that it's it's like just infuriating so I know what you're referring to okay why does everyone keep telling me to go against this Aaron person you mentioned her also actually coherent arguments or is this a joke we'd end up yelling at each other like what's that okay really cuz someone just link the video in the chat and you can watch you later she was on the I did like an after stream last night after friended how wait how long is it if it's long time stamp someone's gonna say someone's edited the best of Aaron to you can we yeah fuck Zen dudes let's do some best of Aaron let's see this girl she goes full retard it's great someone did link the new hope yeah the new hope post the link because I need to find it come on watch oh it's probably funny okay it'll probably take us a minute to get that going but yeah ya know when you were talking with friended yesterday Chris like I didn't again I was a bit like fixated on my own purpose on that screen but like I do I do like your approach it was weird though because he started putting up this weird like almost kind of emotional wall it was kind of like he was saying like there's like this no-go zone it's like why are you pressuring me why are you making me like feel bad why do you have to like guilt me and it's like you're you're basically saying like I mean no offense but it's same thing that you would probably criticize social justice warriors for it for being like special snowflakes and being like unwilling to receive certain forms of information and and just like isn't that something that you when people do and like I don't know I don't want fucking straw man if there's some categorical important difference between what he not even categorical just an important difference between what he's doing there and what a social justice warrior is doing when they are refusing to hear information that they don't like you know maybe you can point out to me but it seems pretty similar I think to be honest it's live at the moment and we are okay went to read and now it's yelling back to green again okay I think might be good yeah I thought that I think is what not working I can't seem to open it up I don't earn provide you with another Lincoln I'm really interested I want my also looking now I haven't seen this Aaron person oh there it is again vegan method you so in this person just like there they were just brutally retarded is the judge yeah pretty much starts going plants of feelings feeling how has she come to that conclusion I mean I says it is end up in a rage he put it was hilarious who is this girl well I don't know which other few this came from from dudes general so just some random yeah she just hopped over okay wait I don't have yoga nism is one of those subjects that triggers people into just like reacting and they just react to it without actually thinking and then they end up putting themself in a stupid position and saying that bacteria and feelings this is also the same guy that use black and white photo though so yeah I yeah powerful argument I love the compilations comp you guys I'm suing out now yeah I'm just gonna invite you any second now really great bit it's a really great bit with I can't remember what he's called a free William I think he's called and he this yeah him and Aaron are just going mad and either start screaming about bacteria oh my god the whole livestream or is this this is just the best dog okay alright I set up no I haven't I'm in here I see both you guys are this in sync so I need to just 15-minute compilations this is so funny vegans lose debate triggered snowflakes best of I can't see the whole title and friended yeah that's funny okay yes can you timestamp us could you times 10 plus the bacteria a bit just in case we need to find it can't we just watch through it let's just let's play it I rinse the one with a little yin-yang to see okay it's the one with the human is a psycho-killer child rapist murderer I think sometimes you've got a call to her weak links and they should be eliminated it's like first of all did I just hear a call for like genocide or something like and and and more importantly like I don't even know the context for that but like a psycho killer all this shit's like art
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NonZeroSum
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Re: Transcripts for sourcing.

Post by NonZeroSum »

Skousen chickens do not try to kill you let's keep going trade me yeah I'm saying that if there was a good reason for that it wouldn't be arbitrary and then it would be justified that's the distinction would you shame he's not talking to a corporate okay okay don't worry about it so many people in the China commercial farmer who's just he's got his own pigs that he raises and he slaughters Oh tell him it's Molly yeah I would say what do you say Chris and what she's saying about and raising their own pigs and stuff and hell does minspeak somehow better yeah yeah it's defining and you're talking about slavery of them okay yeah I just make sense to be 100 is this is it's that person that I forget if it was you guys someone's talking me about some gun daddy was that a you guys is that this person saying dad is here no daddy's a different person he's got Justin Bieber picture I'm looking yeah right now I see a Justin Bieber picture and daddy spelled daddy like DIY chat in the video oh yeah yeah yeah yeah that's the guy he's here yeah god he likes me Chris thank you sir let's keep playing them pigs funny Chris I can tell you're a little incentive personally it's funny I like watching things more when people actually get a little heated I hate just dry like totally fucking boring it's like no you don't fucking to own a living being say you do but that's a fucked up thing to think exactly we're selling you I mean you were in slavery nobody else you abort your to them became necessary true I mean a farmer who raises animals doesn't kill all his animals which other most daddy kill of interests because majority of them died the one cent he kills I mean most animals that are eaten are killed within like the first year to two years of life they're animals that are if he sells the most to be killed they're still gonna be killed they're still being important to this life for either his profit or to die well he isn't profiting from their deaths okay [Laughter] isn't that what she's saying or is she gonna say your shoes are from sweatshops we'll find out it's funny they do this so much colonists don't they like you'll be in a really good argument and they'll it's just time to come up with what's on your feet or do you have pop do you eat palm oil oh I know what you do yeah electricity guys how many goddamn ones that kills absolutely and it's like force you understand that I support those industries right like you get that those people are working the best jobs they have access to and you're actually talking about boycotting that industry to force them into shittier work for lower pay it's like how is that an ethical argument that sounds like just a misunderstanding it's like oh well their conditions look bad to me so the right thing to do is just to not participate it's like that's a very superficial thought not participating now you're talking about actually making things worse for those people do you guys follow what I'm saying they speak about the fact anything before and it's a difficult one to know what to do with it's not I don't think it's difficult at all I mean it's like look if someone had a better job than working in a shoe factory would they not be working that job yeah but what to do to improve their conditions because even if that's the any job they can get we still want to make it better for them so it's what no it's more better when you're talking about something Fairtrade specifically it's like you're talking about companies that can actually afford to meet the fair trade regulations so you're often talking about companies in richer countries companies with more money you're not talking about helping the real like bottom rung fucking shitty person there I also don't know if there's any research that really shows that fair trade does anything I know that there is some research that shows that it puts a shit ton of money into the hands of Western companies retailing fair trade goods at higher prices I think it's pretty much just the thing that is there to make Western people feel good I can't detect the immorality in buying a pair of shoes that were manufactured in some factory in some other country that would not meet our legal conditions here for work like I mean what how how is that not ethical I just I don't comprehend when someone says that is it more ethical for that person to not have that job and to work in a shittier job yeah well not do it yeah if you boycott that thing then yeah doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to now be fair trade and PayPal it just means it might lose their job it's a difficult one hmm yeah I mean if you got two good links on Fairtrade it's something that I've been wanting to learn more about today feel free to send them over yeah I linked one in a video and my response dismantling no bullshit's bullshit okay okay what kind of shoes are all your shoes made of canvas and rubber only yeah was the conversation skipping all over the place of course we don't have a problem cutting down trees pronunciation there before if they talk about the forestation can we just mention that 95 percent of hours in the forestation is due to council and the food that we're feeding time so if you want to talk to forestation and saving trees don't eat homes that's raising crops like soy sauce being feta cones I'm I'm pretty sure that the fucking however many billion animals are raising it's like they consume a shit load of soy well look I think aren't the man someone correct me if I'm wrong aren't the main uses for soy animal feed and it's oils or biodiesel I like like like we have biodiesel like fuel yeah yeah yeah yeah sure we'll get might we actually as he enters really low competitor I'm under the impression animals eat vastly more of it I don't know if I'm right or wrong there but ya know I'm pretty sure you'll correct that yeah continue let me just a tiny micro percentage of soy soy products use in place of the animal products your clothing is it all made in America does it all have a made in America or made in England tag on it how is that like I just don't understand this it's like if you have something those made in Indonesia like what the fuck are you talking about like so you're saying that I need to buy something from already living in better conditions and give money to them instead of giving it to the fucking poorest person yeah oh so how about I have got a t-shirt that was made in Indonesia something you can stop a car loan I know that that's so stupid the other funny thing here to notice is like I mean she's trying to point out little examples of immorality and so far I'm not impressed with any of them she might find some fucking small thing but the thing is like you would never ever try to use a justification like this to justify murdering a human so it's just like why is there what I mean I would just go to name the traits like what what is it that actually justifies accepting those kind of terrible reasons in the animal context like you're not gonna hear like rubber shoes though if we're trying to justify like stabbing your fucking friend lenders something like I'd love to hear brilliant yeah I mean it'd be funny if like you know how the how atheists have the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and they like go and like do like religious things and try to expose the privilege that religious people have in some respects in society like I want to wear my religious headgear for my you know driver's license and he walks in with like a colander on his head um yeah I mean I feel like I could picture vegans doing something that kind of parallels that in some way just like arguing for like completely psychopathic things using the same logic that we use to argue like for animal exploitation you could do an amazing like pranks channel without canoe oh now it's so funny punch someone in front of the police kind of thing and then just be like let's keep going I also don't know if it's just an appeal to futility cuz it's like I mean it sounds like that could be totally a component of it like it's all hopeless you're always exploiting on some level but it sounds like hypocrisy appeal to me it sounds like you're trying to say you're not perfect so why do I have to be you're unethical so why do I have to be well just like totally ignoring the like categories of actions that you're talking about now they're completely different yeah like sounds like she's trying to say vegans are hypocrites maybe she's saying fucking appeal to futility I'm not sure just that's the vibe I get from her probably places too what you'll say I just say old vegan say it's just like a to Queequeg kind of thing isn't it yeah that's the IPL tip RPC is the same is to quote quaint that's how you say yeah I mean shame it's like I very rarely see vegans actually tensional II trying to shame as far as I can read their hearts I don't think that I see that very often I think I see I mean this is a fucking point every vegan has obviously observed but it's like I think I see carnist s-- feeling defensive because of vegans telling the truth about something they care about yeah I mean it says on here shame comes from knowing or it said shame comes from within earlier like that's totally true because the vegan isn't actually looking to evoke a feeling of shame generally like if anything they're just looking to evoke like a kind of recognition that there's something that is bad here feel like shit it's not like vegans want a generally positive world with less suffering and slavery not ben's feel like shit yeah but telling the truth isn't necessary to make it alone I will try and yeah yes take the facts and think about okay first of all just the on a like factual level I'm skeptical of that claim but like it's just wire why are you appealing to the behavior of animals to justify human behavior like if I point to I mean this is just so obviously a bad argument like I can point to any number of fucking ridiculous things that animals do and you're not gonna say oh yeah that's like a good way to be so why do you special plead in the context where it justifies your animal exploitation Oh way to answer my own question she goes through those fun examples now yeah okay what's another deers carcass I can show you videos of squirrels eating rattlesnakes I can show you videos of fucking rabbits eating Birds because you have more protein in meat all life knows that even fucking plants eat meat Deacon's abortions you don't have what's the abortion but thank you anyway vegans have abortions Deacon's all have abortion I'm sorry go ahead yeah no it's gonna say this will walk around having abortions it's who do you it's it's actually part of the definition of veganism they updated it you can check on the vegan society site must have aborted ridiculous amounts of stupid can you just slow down yeah okay yeah like I'm I mean as much as I don't love oh she like you'll really come on women like you are just leaping and bounding here like just place to place like fucking a kangaroo kangaroo comest like she's she's all over the place and this also what I mean by Wacom all right like I'm sure if you knock one of these out and it's not a hundred percent clear that you took it off the table she'll be back to it yeah does she just like it was just like constant that you couldn't get a word in edgeways she was just just constantly yeah we're going into plants got feelings no which is fun oh my listen your gifts galloping you're thrown out so many fallacious arguments these religious they are yes they are they don't have abortions I mean a modernist now you can see you better say is it a categorical statement because that like it's like vegans how abortions like technically it's a true statement there are vegans who have abortions but when you phrase it like that it sounds like you're saying being vegan and I just I just don't like what vegans try to use this moral high horse like over superior because you're using we're eating animals that have been tortured how do you know my animals have been tortured why would you presume it's also that that's a bad argument on a whole other level because it's like if you're sitting there like eating the corpse of a dead person and you're like you know how do you know they were tortured is like well I mean may I don't know maybe they were maybe they weren't but like you're still kind of eating something that involved killing a person guys just kind of missing a big such like glaring lack of understanding of just the where the ethical issue wise it's just like you're like a scraping kids like where the bruise is like I didn't feed them it's like torture doesn't mean that they lived a shitty life exact if somebody wants to kill me what did she say I'm sure that why did she say kill me can't go back that girl was exactly she just questioned like Oh someone wanted to kill me like this questioning go back torture doesn't mean if they lived a shitty life no just not a knife in the neck yeah say for example someone just wanted to kill you isn't it in the ninth way would you say with us appropriate if somebody wants to kill me come on killed you so fucking you know it's it's just like they can try to like okay so are you sorry are you telling me you want to live in a world where there aren't anti murder laws you'd like to live in a world where if you can kill someone then it's fine or do you want some kind of loss in place because you think it's fundamentally wrong and if you're gonna say the ladder that leads to veganism so I don't know what the fuck you're on about try it it's like when you use the aliens thing and you say like yeah I would approve of it but I would definitely fight them back and it said we don't approve then it's like nothing not at all what I accept if they tried to kill me you got a good life they tried and they failed because there's no guarantee that they're going to kill me I am a human being you do understand it's a difference right yeah it's like that that's a such a bad direction it go cuz now every vegan just goes okay what's the trait in the straight near the difference well I love having that response there cuz it feels like it's just programmed by virtue of like the word difference into their heads to difference between humans yeah she's just ignoring you she's just trying to talk over you and she's like where are you if you live in a city a city with made by humans like okay like over eight-point surely and okay I'm sorry it's hard to contain myself small agency and has no other option we are human so there's a difference there and you are equating them to us their life is so valuable it's just invaluable that is so stupid it's like and the difference is we can conceptualize morality it's like okay well if that's the difference then that's a good fucking reason to be vegan you retard that keep it going oh yeah watching I'm on flooding when a human gives birth it gives birth to one baby piglets get off the ground the moment they're born and they're able to suffice think they can walk around and run and human babies can't right yeah it takes us three years before we can just toddle all right let alone it currently took me a day what I was told by my mother it took me a day at one day apparently apparently I started like pulling myself up and waddling around and then I was just doing it same with language acquisition just like no time doesn't really mean much though one of the smartest one of the smartest it was s s oh I think cat meows me out it was meow oh you can see the association was the cat's name of yeah gotta keep its cutting cuz then the difference between the human and animal is that animals will have more than one night so humans have several differences but they're all rubbish keep waving your finger as if you're some more superior person your choice a few differences husband civilization so if humans didn't have civilization it would be okay to kill them no the other one was animals have more babies hi I mean yeah oh it's brutal and she doesn't understand you're not just asking for a fucking random difference like fucking Tigers have tails it's like we're talking about a difference as the treatment animals have more babies like the age of your civilization the amount of babies like these are like not good reasons to murder someone we justify probably murdering like black people because they have more babies higher birth rates become weak is that is it okay to murder them conspiring it's fun birth rates though I'm just laughing I'm sorry it's so funny guys saying they're not sentient that is so funny oh the guy sings no sense iam the girl I know she is I couldn't even hear I'm not watching the video I can just hear the voice oh yeah I think everyone's questioning her because she's saying there's someone yelling they're not sentient yeah I think probably like questioning her like what they're not sentient oh no oh she's probably saying all plants man and they're saying they're not sentient I think that's was like a mind virus yeah it really is yeah like you know the Atheist compare like like I hope veganism follows similar trajectory to like what happened with New Atheism where it's just like we got some massive debate edge and and books coming out and shit and it's just like turned into absolute complete wreckage of the other side intellectually I kind of hope that we see the same thing here I think it is going that way sorry my thing is always fucking breaking up it's right you're saying about you know how and the atheist movement is just like they just take down the religious side and it's just so obvious they've gone now it's gonna be like that veganism and if you wait in a few years I'm sure that's what you're talking about yeah I mean I hope it yeah I now left forgotten how I led into that thought have been I've been streaming for a while um but I mean I do hope it follows that same trajectory though cuz it's just like there's just this topic and everyone's just saying the stupidest shit and it's like oh I just I foresee us just winning the public debate on this eventually and it'll be very glorious yeah that's why we keep doing these streams all these videos and okay I want to get this video finish because uh it's getting late okay yep all right let's let's fucking Isaac how would you if you were to bang this woman how would you handle her at this point oh I'd be telling her to shut the fuck up or booting her off the stream like I'm not like you guys I don't have patience for this shit I'd be like zeroing in on one specific point I'd say no don't talk to me about fucking cities and don't talk to me about like like rubber shoes like let's just talk about one thing plants are sentient okay what's your evidence I don't see any evidence how are they sentient give me some evidence and eventually be like are you going to accept they're not sentient I'd fucking show her the definition of plant perception the paranormal and the actual biological definition and if she wouldn't fucking concede that plants aren't sentient after enough information I just fucking boot her and if she did then we moved to the next point like I go through a point-by-point I do not I don't know how you guys do this this looks like a fucking shit show of I'll just find a fight I have started doing that kind of tactic now and with people that I speak to on the street and then it's quite funny when they just [Laughter] conscious trees don't have a subjective experience do they any is like what I said well you know like morality is subjective isn't it it's not objective it's just like Oh infuriating yeah it's so stupid you need to provide the study second you can go on Wikipedia in the condom and plant perception which lists all the things you're saying plants do you're saying when I just not sentience my iPhone can do a lot of these things it can react to sound it can react to does not mean they have a subjective experience of the world or ascent in any way so unless you want to provide actual scientific evidence of plant sentience which doesn't exist then you have to concede about the point they take the photons from the Sun can convert that into carbon-based like they're the only organisms that do this so we need plants to exist animals would not exist if not for plants so even if plants were sentient we'd still have no choice regarding eating other animals we do have a choice one sec the best pay is you see what Tim does you can't come in he says it and then he drops out is his own mic drop it's funny I actually personally really don't like that point because it gives ground to the other side it's like I don't I don't want to say well like if you care about plant sentience even less plants are dying if you if you eat plants directly than if you put them through animals like why are we even going there plants are not sentient right we don't even need to talk about that there's no evidence end of story yeah she sang that yeah he talking about onions feeling threatened in a minute this is the study from danger are you able to define things in a way that would make me confident in your ability to actually understand the work can you do that to prove myself to you and that's a real douchebag move to be quite honest suck a dick what a pathetic response he's crazy I don't know it's just my said I don't have to justify myself to you behind them names but it's like it's like you're calling everything this term do you want to define it study from God knows why with a black-and-white photo of some fucking priest you're right plants are these non feeling objects so that way you feel good while you're consuming them when when she says that when she says nan feeling like she prances non like mankind like Indian nan bread so I'm just picturing like a sunflower just like tickling a package of not true it's good he's cut out the pit we're up where I went through each of us study individually and showed that the word sentence wasn't even mentioned in any of them is so funny did this mention black and white photo though oh I missed that day okay on the other bit to get the full context for that yeah okay okay and you should feel well plants feel too but you don't want to accept them stop hold the livestream just watch all the documentaries and then stream talk about just eight toxic attitude like holy shit I mean this girl's gonna have a hard time finding a man let's put it that way I know I don't care about it argumentative I care about just I mean like I can understand getting mad at people I get mad at people but it's like when you're just level of lack of like just respect for the truth and this level of lack of intent to actually understand coupled with that anger it's just like I would shoot myself with this for my girlfriend yeah everybody on base is the best bit from Eucharist or from Erin I know it's between Aaron and this guy free well okay take what you want out of whatever it is to fake your agenda whether not plants are sentient is completely irrelevant because within the biological system do you have the capacity to not talk and to just self-regulate your subject I'm explaining why your arguments bunk so let him speak yes taking the energy from the Sun and they turn that into carbon-based life they are the only organisms that are capable of doing though that so without plants animals do not exist ok so animals need plants to exist so whether or not they're intelligent or sentient is irrelevant we would still require them to be able to subsist you do not need animals to subsist that is the difference if you cannot understand that difference now you will never understand that difference can we also just Mary mind this is the other study she linked us once again plant intelligence no sign of the word sentience within the article how much more evidence do we need to show now I mean do you think bacteria are sentient a virus here we go my horses aren't even alive I know I know I'm seriously asking does she think bacteria are sent it does she think viruses are sent in we're quite deep as soon as you become a cell does it start becoming sentient or or our atom senses like I'm asking serious questions right make you don't eat bacterium you're eating plants okay well if bacteria were sentient then there would be moral qualms about b12 all right your diet right I'm going to the point that you guys try to shame people who eat any kind of meat or fish or eggs or milk or cheese you try to shame them for doing that is if you're morally superior and they say well plants also feel now that is like no they don't well neither fucking hilarious [Laughter] standing honestly a battlecry well that was a hilarious experience that sounded like honestly more cancerous than my debate with a philosophical vegan so I'm actually going to not feel as annoyed anymore because I feel like I've been shown that there is a worse reality this is like a calming thing it actually makes me worry about the like whether humanity is going to survive but you know whatever oh yeah this is why we do streamer you want the guys well she's gonna say oh yeah this is what we do street activism because there's a lot more positive than these online debates yeah yeah these are fun oh yeah the good thing about online debates though it's like obviously when you do like one-on-one with people and you know you're generally quite polite and everything but with these it's like UFC if the funny thing is it is almost like that in the vegan community that you think like when there is a debate literally everyone Tunes in people would be up to 4:00 in the morning it's like you might as well start pay-per-view kind of thing I do as well but the thing is I get so engrossed in them it becomes like a soap opera for me do you fight you guys are you guys finding that WWF involved in it mean for it to become like a soap opera let me see what it's out there like storylines well it's just because I'm hearing the same bloody arguments over and over again it's because so boring I can't be asked to respond you know it's just the same thing over yeah I love the psychology behind the debates of stuff and why that person has come up with that particular you know that it's just this psychological aspects of it I enjoy I guess yeah but yeah it's a really special moment it will never forget like cognitive thoughts rage cry yeah like that was actually what I liked about that little compilation so I didn't realize how many hilarious little special moments the vegan community had in those debates but yeah it's like there's a few moments that I think will just be referenced for a long time like I always will get people and milk jars shut the fuck up when I do things yeah we should make merch of all these quotes on Oh man merch would be so fun I would definitely yeah like that that's a funny idea just putting some quotes from these debates on yeah I mean it's something that's necessary oh yeah why do you say it's them being logically consistent about everything is the most retarded thing ever it's like and yeah I mean I just I don't know like I feel that the debates are kind of like a necessary evil they're like painful to go through they're painful to watch like like pretty much any painful experience they're funny to reflect on after the fact I mean I guess people get a kick out of them while they're happening I just feel like we need to take the actual argument for veganism to the public and just like actually make the argument in the kind of arena of ideas in the same way that like saying earlier in the same way that the Atheist movement did and now it's to a point at least on the internet that anyone who's coming from a religious angle like at least on YouTube for sure it's like you're just a laughingstock people don't take you seriously if your video actually gets wide widespread you'll have just massive negative feedback you know mm-hmm it's it's been kind of discredited in that way and like culturally I think in a large way it has also so I just feel like we need to kind of take the vegan debate to the public in the same way and kind of win it in the arena of ideas as much as it's a painful grading process to go through yeah yeah yeah there definitely needs to be like more of these kind of big debate so that's a really good one on Earth what's the channels going to intellect squared or something have you seen oh my Q so yes a debate debate forum yeah yeah we need more yeah yeah we need more of that yeah Bert Bernard and Bower Peter singer and no no no it wasn't any of those guys actually it was completely different but Philip well it was a different debate no one could ID him and add some guy whose came in being like some Aussie guy saying like ah it's all part of our culture and my stuffies yeah an idiot like a number who that I he squared one was um ya mean we just like that this they need to like have this kind of debate on TV really like I'm sure I'm sure we'll get to that level like political debates do you reach the television once they get enough you want say get noticed enough yeah we're come show you that I'm carnage didn't it um and like it showed like how like on like BBC Newsnight and something started bringing up the conversation of veganism actually to be fair I got um I got invited to go on the BBC to talk about petting shit yeah it seems like yeah I've seen a few of these mmm like I don't see much media over here that has anything to do with veganism it seems like there's a bit of a difference over there seems like it's slowly permeating the mainstream culture did you see my video response to the BBC program where Tim shieff was responding to a nutritionist like a a nutritionist dietician they were saying that vegan is I don't know that I saw that one yeah so that that was a BBC sort of like morning show and they had like a couple of vegans that been vegan for like only six months and then no sorry that a vegan couple dad very bins fingers like two weeks and another one there's been vegan for seven months and then it was Tim shieff and there was this two nutritionist I think one of them was actually plant-based but she did actually go into it very much and the other one was just like totally veganism there's no proof that is healthy it could be really bad for you that you you have to really think about all the new nutrients that you get and stuff otherwise and it's really hard all this kind of stuff and then Tim shieff was just wearing this t-shirt that said ethics on the front of it and he was just like asking about ethics and she was just like well I can't possibly gotta I can't that's not my area of expertise I can't possibly comment on on ethics because I'm a nutritionist and that's all I know about I should watch your response I don't watch a lot of the ones that are like nutrition centered and like in virus entered I tend to focus on the ethical shit it's kind of my sphere but I should watch that one that was the first world actually that was the first response video I did actually went a bit more into the health side of it in just a bit did a bit of research on you know like the studies into heart disease and how there's a link between you know like cholesterol saturated fat and heart disease and stuff like that quite interesting for me but there's a lot on on that video bioethics as well so I think I think you can avoid the nutrition debate a lot of time they all you literally need to know is the NHS bridge yeah nutrition adequate that's all you need a da and speedy a basically British say that it's um nutritionally adequate for all stages of life from baseline could you say well it's been shown that we can survive is no worse or no less you know without looking at the rest just you know oh yeah it's like is there a single is there a single nutrient you can't get is there a single death attributed to veganism specifically you know these things is no and there never will be a death attributed to veganism even if a vegan dies from their diet it's gonna be from an inadequate diet not from veganism per se yo the press they liked in especially in this country we've had stories having me Chris of the parents that they're vegan parents that fed their children and everything like that right but that woman that tried to climb Mount Everest and died and they splayed on her being vegans climbing Everest yeah it's like just because someone is something and they're doing something doesn't mean that's what made them fuck up it's like it's not as straightforward as like you know Islamic suicide bomber bombs a building yelling Allahu Akbar it's like yeah that guy was like motivated by the fact that he's Muslim but if it's like you know someone happens to be vegan and they do something or a Muslim does something that's completely unrelated to Islam like an example sam harris uses they're like buying alcohol it's like or stealing alcohol it's like well it's sure not Islam that's telling him to fuckin steal the alcohol's he can't really blame his religion there can you hmm because it's a bit of religion condemns alcohol the vegan it's like you can't say it's the veganism that caused the failure to climb Mount Everest is just a person who happen to be vegan there's no direct connection well yeah the burden of proof is certainly on them yeah guys want to call it that was a really good stream actually like when Joey popped in my screams doesn't happy this is the first one on the scene what a good vibe very easy to talk to you he's been on my house we've fed him vegan cheesecake that we made for him absolutely yeah we should do this again sometime you guys yeah I'm around whenever I like I'm happy to stream with the other vegan channels that obviously goes for you too Chris if you're ever streaming yeah yeah I'll send you a link next time I'm trying to do quite a few recently so yeah I mean I'm not I'm not gonna come on stream with people like mizzen who owe me an apology but I'm not buy like if you're streaming yeah yeah that's fine I mean one thing I don't know if you'll be interested in volcano like me and Tim Wong who do you want on their pets I don't think that's anything you've ever Connie it's not something I have very interesting thoughts on I mean okay it's like but it's not right up my alley yeah yeah I'll keep you informed anyway talk to you more regularly and stuff yeah man well I like to share the attention around to the best of my ability when I do a like significantly higher sub range what I really want to do is get a vegan roundtable happening on some regular basis and like I don't mean this in a bad way or anything but like not the little fucking like micro channels that have their little like Friday stream so like I want to have like like representing the vegan community on YouTube there's not that much communication between them it's like you know do you think that there's a line of communication between like unnatural vegan and Richard like I fucking doubt it maybe I mean like it's just to get all these people in veganism together discussing like issues within the community and just current stuff that's going on and different perspectives rings become a bit more of a superorganism you know what I mean right now it's a very individualized kind of YouTube climate where you don't see a whole lot of like talking and all this kind of stuff especially at a higher end of things the little chant don't seem to do it fucking all the time yeah it's very true like never seen like a like happy healthy B didn't like collabing with people very to be honest I apart from Eucharist you Isaac and then Richards and like the vegan there's no not any other channel so I'm Jerry Caron obviously and sometimes James I don't suffer them I do like the small channels I do like watching the live streams more so than some of the bigger channels because they're just the life seems are great because we just start going into a whole range of subjects which are great is in you know you can take it anywhere someone could just hop in and be like well yeah let's talk about this and you just start you know go really into the kind of depths of veganism and all those kind of microbes and I think that's really interesting rather than just why in a day videos and stuff like that you know there's people doing that stuff and they're great and they're getting the views like you know freely and people are that you know they're doing that thing I think talk about those smaller issues I'm you know you know I'm really interested in actually move veganism forward you know properly like you know how what do we do with the farmers how do we get how do we help them trans to other things what can we do what schemes are there out there you know that we can we can help people I'm yeah I'm pretty interested in discussing that kind of thing there's some really great people who like put up all Tim who's got like you know the tiny channel but he's a fuckin intelligent guy I learned so much from that guy and I think people like hammer you know you know probably more vital than you know some of the other bigger channels to be honest yeah I mean I think that there's purpose for communicating with everyone but I also think that there should be streams specifically happening between the larger youtubers in the community because I mean like it or not those people regardless of their intellectual merit or whatever there are just the figureheads there are the people who objectively have the following and get the views and are representing veganism and just on that basis alone there should be streams between them and it's not like oh you're a small channel and you have really good ideas but you're just not welcome you're not good enough it's more just like the big channels should be talking just by virtue of fact that there are big channels like not that not there are like there are our channels here sorry what are you destroying stuff that'll sooner than later
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NonZeroSum
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Re: Transcripts for sourcing.

Post by NonZeroSum »

I mean yeah Richard's obviously got a huge platform he's got outreach that he could people would respond to him if he's called out to them I've thought about it it it could be good to talk to Richard about it yeah I mean I kind of it's so weird I don't actually have a good answer to that because to me I just kind of visualized it being something I do when I'm more like near the like hundred hey like and up in the kind of six digits with some of those other people yeah but I guess like yeah maybe there would be a case for starting it sooner well no the thing is I should think about that the thing is you might not have the subs but I think when it comes to kind of how kind of well-known you are everyone knows you yeah that the numbers are a bit irrelevant sometimes because you know like we have Richard he's got such a big flowing form like the health kind of aspects because when people go vegan like that not just veganism but people care more about sort of like their own health and their own her selfishness then ethics and there's a there's a lot less people that sort of really concentrate hone in on the ethical argument of veganism there's only a few vegan youtubers are doing that such as ourselves but like there's so many more channels that are just health orientated or you know just food orientated which are a lot more popular so I think yes as Isaac you are yet totally we're in like the in the grand scheme of things you are really popular as far as vegan ethics are concerned oh I wasn't saying oh yes to that oh yeah yeah totally I was just saying part of it is seems like a level of hypocrisy though because it's like let's have communication between the big channels just for the sake of we need communication at the higher levels of the movement but what I'm invited on those streams because it's my idea even though if I'm the standard for the fucking size there should be way more people on these streams you know it's almost I think that's part of why I thought of doing it when I'm at a bit higher of a level on this platform well I think if you just I mean yeah you think about it you could get you Richard Joey we could I'm sure Joey could rope chains and people like that you start with those kind of those kind of people I mean they know you can James Joey and Ed's I reckon they work quite well they've come together quite like if you notice over the last few months Joey and an ad okay yeah sorry I think yeah we should I think you should reach out because I mean yeah that would be a good idea I think I think you know like yes I'm cool here I think like she at least you know she at least kind of you know I did she feel angles often things and stuff I think yeah she would be a valuable person yeah well I mean I'm not really natural I don't know like I don't I don't watch a whole lot of Swayze's content but like I mean just by virtue of her size she should be at a big vegan discussion table and like I mean but like also she has interesting things to say obviously but if it's like the people at the top should talk then she's certainly in that range I mean personally I would say like even though people have like problems with freely and stubble you'd want to get freely there oh there's an exception like durianrider has that kind of size but he's not pulling views and and like I don't I don't want to exclude anyone like fundamentally like there's some of these controversial people like vegan cheetah but like as long as they're capable of being like what's that word civil uh then I really wouldn't might mike devine of course mike the vegan just like anyone who's kind of like up there who's like I don't know either has the subs or is pulling the views really I think people like Mike the vegan and Swayze would actually be probably quite interested in that concept let's wait he's actually on the philosophical vegan forum I think he recommends it quite a lot in their videos yeah I mean I don't know how good the forum is I'm under the opinion that that guy who I like basically just assassinated yesterday it was is actually some kind of like leader up in that space well I be respected for me yeah for me that's not looking good for the forum it's like look I understand that he's using an incorrect definition or that he's misrepresenting my position and it's just that caught him is choice it's one or the other I mean that's not someone who's impressing me intellectually so I'm don't know how I feel about the forum but people actually have social media presence though absolutely and I'm I'd be fine with again like some of those channels that really don't talk ethics they're just like you know whether they're like fucking bodybuilders or whatever they may be doing just get the communication happening because I think that the communication is just going to be a more like unified and just connected and awesome community you know what I mean yeah I just I just I want more of that I want us to it just it's like I don't know how to fully describe what I mean but it should just be like I don't want an orthodoxy I don't want there to be a certain like prevailing mode of thought I don't want to do this - like in force one mode of thinking but I just want discussion about the differences and like a lot of these people have their like disagreements so there could actually be trouble involved like I don't know if like Swayze would get on the street Mike I don't know if I don't know if Richard has beef with any vegans I don't know I'm just saying there's some who might not get on like I don't know if Richard would get on a stream with cheetah there's one you know like I'm Tim shieff I I've seen him debunk him I don't know if he has a personal problem with them so I can't speak to that drinking stuff is another yeah it's like he's listened a bit too much to spare yeah so yeah I mean I just I think that'd be a great idea and I don't know I'll do it at some point maybe someone who's got the subs will hear this and beat me to it and I would be fine with that I just think it should happen and it would be good to just have it regularly you know cuz there's so much to discuss you can talk about like if there's any current events like sometimes you have should happen like a videos flying around all over the internet of some fucking vegan protester who did something stupid like spat on someone got punched in the face was a recent example of that you know like talking about shit like that like current events and veganism hash out philosophical differences there is room to talk like strategy and stuff talk about what and also with that level of unison when shots are fired at the vegan community we can have a united coherent response to it as opposed to like oh one or two people respond it's like it can be like a force between us there's millions of subs right so it's just why isn't there that connection I could probably rant about it for a while but it's it's really worth doing I'll tell you a thing about who might be worth contacting is plant-based news because it goes oh yeah never really oh and you you think they could probably get like don't you know michael greger and people like that involved and another thing joy and you know as well as the youtubers yeah I mean if I were doing it at this stage I would probably try to like put out a video I'd see if I could get Richard on board and I talked to anyone who I personally know like Cory Joey who like whoever else and just yeah see if I can get a nice little cluster of people and do like a kind of round table thing but like I just feel I don't know to me the intuitive thing I'm feeling is that that's something that comes a bit further down the line I don't really know that I want to try that at this point yeah I love the idea so I'm gonna try and continue to do these live streams weekly I think from now on leading up to that because like I work full time now I don't really don't have time to like edit many videos these days which are you liking your new job um I mean it's the same thing day in day out I can be wrong it's just the same as any other job but I mean yeah it's not it's not too bad I mean I can put up with it for now but uh obviously I want to be doing the trick YouTube full time but I don't know I feel like him I like to pass on that you know I I like having a routine I like I actually like working it's the words I I like having a routine that I can I I know what I'm doing day in and day out if I don't have a routine I have to do like do it myself or think about how to plan my day I just like what the fuck do I do like how do I become a be a youtuber I just like to do that okay oh man I have like fucking routine I'm like you know up in the morning doing my shit fucking I get in the zone and go meditate and smoke a doobie know that doobie this little thing with no routine ya know and then later eventually I'm like if I can make it back here I get right into videos just links so in the fucking zone and down to do it quit in a few hours and then you know when I start burning out on that do some other shit you wake up in the morning what you go out straightaway meditate did you have breakfast faster usually my usually I usually I like get some food into me like usually just some fucking fruit I would make a smoothie if I had a functional Vitamix right now and then there's this little park near my house and it's really good there's this little sketchy hill that you can kind of climb down and at the bottom there's a dam and you can actually get out onto the dam and then you can just sit there and it's so weird because there's like there's the waterfall but a lot of it is just still water behind you and then there's like the moving water in front and it's just very calm and there's no people around and yeah just fucking like just blaze a dank sesh and just chill out meditate for you know a chunk of time and then make my way back just like ready to begin a day yeah what's other ones refreshing did that one with your iPhone what's that it's in the same general area it's not right it's not it's not where I'm talking about the dam but it's very close yeah really nice yeah well I guess maybe call it there alright guys well any time for live streams great talking to both of you everyone's super ciao Emma everyone Supachai i'ma give us some money it sounds kind of like you sound eucharist when you say that I'm projecting don't like the be Eucharist like that Christian thing do you guys know what I'm talking about do you Chris the Lord's Supper among other names is a Christian Rite that is considered sacramental in most churches and an ordinance in others it just kind of sounds as when you said you Chris like Eucharist excusing me of begging for money no all right guys well I will talk yeah sorry no go ahead no I just saying everyone needs to donate to Chris's crowdfunding for the film oh yeah I'll link a link itself yeah go do that Chris seems like a pretty solid dude so I mean it's making a vegan film get some exposure for vegan music what the vegan music scene is like donate on that shit alright guys good talking all right you just got to pound oh shit really yeah oh it's etienne again - you're in a few years yeah energy music she says oh team isn't and ask yourself kiss yeah I I read somewhere that someone was trying to ship like so you listen weird shipping going on I don't think they'll ever make up to you America we'll find out next episode this has been a really long stream not long Liam did over 24 hours yeah but this has been like three hours you know this is the earliest I'll finish this tree but is the early it's officially stream started out so of course no yeah both hands shook your quit as well raking in and we will stay on the more use yeah you send super chance to stay on for longer say just just tell just she'll add an extra five minutes for every person who signs up to my patreon hinted any questions before I go to bed yes really tired good streaming secrets thanks Liam are they really good stream last weekend not you of Liam did you did you this last weekend last weekend had a good old chat that's amazing weekends Oh anyway yeah I was in a club of BJ actually popped Meriden to say that I was DJing for soup oh yeah I can't see any Oh Tim same put my big lip picture up on them green chair I know it's on my Twitter Adam let me see if I can screen share and see if people see it on my image in Google Hangouts it'll mean that I stick onto the spring oh my god hang on how can we get this onto the screen so that everyone can see it if only do you put it on the Hangout yeah Tim's her and II work the stream they won't see it we won't see it we need some of that new avatar I use this in the future maybe I might actually respond to this Nate diet as a proper video all right I think I think you can see it I think yes thank you I needed that is that Diglett okay hold on we've got a we got more hot on I made the evolution as well there's another one yeah think that evolved into Dugtrio oh nice to see this where's the link I'll just put it up on my thing oh it was a symbol to Diggler we're talking Pokemon yeah so Diglett is evolved into Dugtrio just just enjoy it okay yeah it's fine just just enjoy yeah it looks lovely that's cute AG says he's opened AG said he's open to talk to Isaac I think you guys should yeah talk it out talk it out guys let's not be friends [Laughter] [Music] ya know that's why even if I'm not in the wrong yeah [Music] I have offended some vegans have you yeah well just by saying certain words like retard and stuff like that I can offend people pretty easily just by saying mmm this offended someone more about you just triggered someone here for the animals were vegans I think we need I think we need to get evil on the screen Oh God I can't I need to go to bed no reason in my chat or comment on any of my videos he doesn't know who I am so no he watched he watched a live stream when we replied to him how he doesn't believe in animal rights video so I know that he's familiar with them know that of the urine no one I responded to him but he's familiar someone's asking would you ever consider sucking begin gain big black cock did you see that video did about a PewDiePie saying that at the n-words we depute you did a video on it but you know speak against it yeah it's really good oh yeah yeah that's what being gay but you don't puts on the same see my idol video on trying to string with him have you tried to watch this I'll look it up sounds fun my streams may be a knife it soldier if you around next I'll get you on because in the chai yeah is to come in more yeah if you're up for it then I'll have your next time perhaps a certain exact level with them yeah it depends balaclava with him the video I'm trying to find your eyes or video where's your eyes over here um Twitter foot soldier whereabouts is it you've got a lot a lot of videos I'm straining he does put content out you know smashing it up chair wit 44 again mushroom would you spit VG come into a why mouth yeah each ended turn into ChatterBait yeah I will put some a goal was up to Roma yeah I'll do things as long it's fine why you're taking a finally just reading the chat sometimes come on more funny comments no I'll do two more minutes still capacities durianrider even relevant no I've lost all interest in the guy what's a video of his in like two two or three years you remembered it is debating vegan game scene is that actually happening right don't it but only amuse me if it didn't yeah I'll first show just show eyes will finally declined okay right I'm chair would sort of give you a vegan cookie because you're a dirty slut cookies with my cookie yeah I've actually foot soldier versus unnatural vegan I could be interested yeah guys what would be ok if you had two people in like two people battle each other who would it be the big debate who would it be and also I want to pitch an idea I ask you to answer I'd like either Knievel's well yeah we're not friends but they're not say yeah I've had this idea for a while about I wanted to do like a kind of you know the Royal Rumble they know where they you kind of bring a person in like every like a couple of minutes kind of thing and then you can add like wildcard people in as well so like other than Jerry carb strong starts off you know maybe with durianrider because the you know that they obviously you've got better beef they battle it out aisel comes in next Ryan from happy healthy vegan he gets in there cheap lazy vegan makes an interest then you get someone like complete wild card on there like you be a complete wild card Tim Schmoyer from video creators he's coming in shouting people about they're not se having their videos grow did you know he's one of the correspondents for Infowars and he does like like ant II ant anti-trump yeah I want to do Street interviews like that I want to get to that level that's kind of fun I'll be fun Joey carve strong times 100 like yeah he just he just kind of harasses people just follow them around microphone asking them questions but they can't answer you makes girls cry cry because they call us the questions I just get really upset because they just don't know how to respond and some really good powers in the milk Jarvis is Jasmine you're being a jerk Chuck will come in then alpha Jackie Liam is a tag boys will come in followed by freely and then another big one ben shapiro he'll be tucked in there you know then some other day some complete wild cards you know this yeah it'll be it'll be crazy I don't know he would win maybe Alex James I check low in southern sargon this is such a good you can imagine it would kick right off amazing and then yeah it would just keep going just keep chucking people in key from happy being young chance to get in there oh yeah compassionate living Oh the return of a lead to breezy like she knows her stuff she's you should talk about your nominated for the VegFest Awards onion I think last year as well for best vegan of vlogger I don't actually do any vlog so I don't know why I'm nominated again yeah I looked at the list I don't see no offense of them because I know rooted people in there and I think you're all fucking lovely yeah it's a rerun I think Tom bass News in that category cuz I really enjoy their content at the moment I like their plant-based doctors the interviewee with the plot based doctors I mean that's so relevant and so like important at the moment I don't you know because just right over the past yeah tonight what the health and stuff yeah just a bit confused about yeah I mean I just wondering where they're the nomination stuff coming from because like see all the channel it's at all the channels obviously really no great great channels I mean no but nothing bad about and like I said I know everyone is in it but like for example you know picking out and say I know pastor living as illegal anything for a while quiet and like um like le as well le the earthly love le at least amazing I definitely she's still she's still going I think she might be an O he might be still at uni so she's probably I don't know whether she's finished yeah I mean she's a job or something maybe she's getting her career because she's I know it she's you know she's in the arts field say I know you talk about me I'm talking about Asia and he hasn't uploaded for like ten months and I've seen it like I said I know and I want them all to win because they're all incredible but like yeah I know just wondering where they got their cousin trying to work out about it's the VegFest Awards so London VegFest is coming up on is it a 21st of October and yeah then there's nominations for different categories of vegan Awards so I'm up for yeah best vegan vlogger if you want to vote for there's a lot you know there's better people in the category I think that would everyone babe no no I would say vote for one planet pizza in the vegan fast food category no seriously oh yeah we could vote for them yeah one pizza the best banana in vegan vlogger I mean I love all the other guys but bananas Miguel yeah if you're watching this live stream you should really go and vote for me I mean yeah I said with a link Yeah right see this will work yeah okay yeah that's it own find the what's the Jewish go go go and bite for banana Jack green is asking about thoughts or the Jewish Question I don't actually know I have no idea voice a huge question Chris and Anna's thoughts on the Jewish Question again right ways Oh No yeah Jack said Ben Shapiro versus ask yourself making the trake debate I would love to see that oh yeah because both sorry whoever expressed any if anyone would know probably be Jack green who's in the chat Green responded said Ben Shapiro or was it somebody I'm sure you okay you can get a video yeah Ben berry supports anti-vegan propaganda interesting interesting special I will read it yeah I don't know what you go and on about with the the Jewish question the most important question yeah talking about I don't know anything about woofster I don't know what that is I'm sorry oh I hate a bunch of sheep Ares onto vegan shit okay cool well really okay I didn't really know what's happening either I'm just reading people's comments in the chat yeah okay well I think I need to go to bed you know let's wrap it up let's wrap it up yeah it's been I mean and Chris thank you ever so much for sorting out this sweet layout I'm gonna no worries once I am closed down this set up I'm hoping it will save it again so I don't have to change anything next time yeah well yeah well yeah yeah there's gonna be no after-party from the unfortunate guys I won't I actually got an early night yeah failure I'm supposed to start the after party go ahead maybe Liam I want to host or Tim or someone maybe hop over to their channels okay some subscribe to everybody in the chat yeah guys it's the end for us I'm super chapter shit i'ma give loads of money maybe next time please come and watch again they're cool next weekend all right yeah good night Chris I'm gonna go sleep on the girlfriend
Unofficial librarian of vegan and socialist movement media.
PhiloVegan Wiki: https://tinyurl.com/y7jc6kh6
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NonZeroSum
Master of the Forum
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Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:30 am
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Re: Transcripts for sourcing.

Post by NonZeroSum »

_________________

Absolutely demolishing Philosophical Vegan (warning: may cause brain aneurysm).
Ask Yourself

A retard called Philosophical Vegan has brutally failed to debunk #namethetrait, and has "corrected" it into some grotesque Frankenstein of an argument. This video will serve as his medal of failure and embarrassment for all of time.

Transcript

already so I think this stream is now starting up and just gonna wait for some people to collect before we go on a brutal Massacre fest here okay I may as well share the actual stream out to everybody so youtube.com it's the glorious speed of my internet you're witnessing right here my channel and here is me talking get that URL it's here and I'm just going to post it on Twitter gonna intellectually molest philosophical retard come join oh I should say live so people know what's happening right now and share so that will also share to my Facebook and then patreon let's put it here marking philosophical vegan live okay so now just make sure it did in fact post over to Facebook I'll come check on you guys in chat in a second oh shit whole lot of people popping in sup guys okay nice so it's shared all over the place all righty then I'll just make sure everything's good and sound volume is bit too low okay we are going up you guys let me know if that's good um okay let's just read through see what people are saying hello but ass flow nice comment how long is your cock and feet Hey got an actual notification yeah if any you guys want to make sure to get notifications for live streams you got to hit the bell icon beside the subscribe button oh didn't miss it you demand the trade is cholesterol yeah I know it's that finally a stream I know I don't stream enough I should do it more often it's kind of one of those things that I tend to do when there's something that's just pissing me off and it doesn't deserve a video so this guy has annoyed me he's gotten under my skin and I'm just gonna absolutely demolish him I'll give you guys the history I've got all the links below to the history of the nature of the disagreement well I've already got a fucking super chat well thanks whoever that was I'll read it in a sec you've got some prawns on your desktop fuck are you talking about my desktop is great I love my desktop I keep it nice and clear you know keep shit organized didn't used to be that way volume is a little low okay you guys let me know if the volume is still low what's that super chat do you like the music I sent you in the DMS I still have to go through it please use my old avatar oh I'm sorry okay so you guys don't seem to be talking about any volume problems I am gonna wait just I don't know maybe like five minutes for people to collect so if you guys have any questions or you want to chat about anything for a few minutes that'll be fine when people watch this fresh I'm going to put a timestamp to where the actual debunking starts all right no everyone seems to think the volume is fine that is excellent okay let's pop this chat out and I will slide it all the way over here ah okay yeah that's way better mm-hmm you should be more popular well popularity is not the be oh yeah guys I know the volume is fine you can you can stop now I understand have you ever had an argument you had a hard time answering um not on veganism but on other subjects definitely is the philosophical vegan the vegan atheist I don't think so the voice sounds very different but I think that he's kind of like the main guy on the vegan atheist forum which is now the philosophical vegan forum oh no it's just some fucking pretentious know-it-all moron I'm gonna destroy him just wait opinion on antinatalism I take a medium position I don't support hard antinatalism because that's a you know just voluntary extinction is the logical conclusion of that I don't support hard natal is Ameobi cuz overpopulation is the logical conclusion of that so I just want reasonable sustainable birth rates do you know if Blair White is vegan yes I asked her she is a vegan um Isaac you so cool oh cool like cool okay um okay let's hope Vic don't cut out oh yeah well I mean it might cut out all you know it'll come back it's not the end of the world recommendations on how to get better at debates and logic fucking go on my patreon I have a private convo tier just kidding um I don't know just read a lot watch a lot of debates you know read people like Sam Harris Steven Pinker those will take you in good directions Darren's asking do you think the vegan atheist can actually make a comeback I think that he means like a comeback as a channel like to getting lots of views um I mean I don't know I'm really not sure I don't know mm-hmm would it be possible for you to stream a bit more in Europe hours no I don't I don't actually watch the time I just do it when I feel it shit's starting to build up fast Isaac can the trait be respect for law and order I'm fine with killing violent mental patients who are dangerous and will never get better banging their heads against walls tangle well it has to actually you have to actually be like violating law and order in some kind of meaningful way like just a lack of respect isn't enough to justify like murdering someone obviously ok let's just check and see how many of you guys we have here now 94 it's pretty good might let it grow just a tiny bit more mm-hmm favorite philosopher probably Sam Harris I really like Sam Harris mm-hmm did I get a degree in philosophy no thoughts on Christopher Hitchens really amazing guy to listen to fantastic orator ask yourself you're coming out to Harris Pinker event in LA no I'm not in LA that's far for me mm-hmm since having my eyes opened and going vegan I'm experiencing longer periods in a depressed state any advice on how to cope with the new knowledge world perception veganism might bring with it oh that's a hard one it depends on the individual like you just kind of have to accept on some level there's a lot of fucked up shit in the world and I mean you want to just be happy and do your part and I personally don't spend all my time thinking about the animal Holocaust and worrying about it you know I just I put out my arguments and I don't contribute to it I don't think it's worth destroying yourself mentally thinking about it all the time this comment do magic mushrooms depression goes poof hmm okay so I think I think it's well I keep seeing new names maybe I will wait just a tiny bit more hey Isaac I have a really small penis um well thank you for letting me know okay oh btw anything new about the circle you wanted to form with all the bigger vegan channels like Mike the vegan and so on oh I was just talking about that on a live stream a while ago I mean I was just saying I don't think that we have enough communication in this community like especially at the higher end the like in terms of sub count and views and stuff like the smaller channels seem to communicate a whole shitload but I mean when have you ever seen like fuckin like Richard and Swayze on a stream or like even like just any of these people you know what I mean it's like there's very little communication at the high end it's not their fault it's just a very you know kind of individualistic movement but I would really like I'll probably do this when I get to like 100k just start doing regular kind of like roundtables with the whole community where we can just discuss like current events things happening in veganism you know work out differences and just become more cohesive as a community it's also gonna be really effective in you know the battles to come when this kind of becomes more central as a public debate topic because we want to I mean we don't want to have some like dogmatic rigid kind of top-down structure of how we think dictated by the higher channels but we can't help the fact that there are bigger channels with more followings and they if we talk and communicate we can become more unified not in a like dogmatic sense but just in a sense of we can work out a lot of opinions be on the same page if we start receiving negative media or we start getting response videos from a community we can respond collectively as a community and just decimate it so there would be a lot of good to come from having kind of like community round tables basically so I'll eventually start doing that for sure do I have a face yeah show my face fucking many many times anyone who's watched my channel would know that hmm okay live dashboard alright so got like 135 people 39 huh keeps going up well whatever I think that it's okay to start so let me just find my way over to hmm the thing that I'm responding to okay so basically there's this retard his name is philosophical vegan he is a pretentious condescending idiot he kind of he operates in the background of veganism he's big shit on the philosophical vegan forum which means in the big picture he's fucking nothing and he basically kind of works as this like I think he views himself as the like background logician of veganism like helping us properly formulate our arguments and I mean anyway whatever he shows up on one of my videos by the way all of these videos everything about to talk to you is linked in the bottom so you can find the whole history of events here so he shows up on one of my videos a few days ago telling me I'm a moral Objectivist I just pretty much blew it off and was like no I don't think that morality exists independent we have object I think it requires a subject to exist so if you think that you're just wrong to which he responded with just massive massive massive comment it's all over this thread basically like he was just all over it and then you know I just ignored I was like whatever no big deal I'm on friend ins response like a day later two days later I don't know and I see him doing the same thing just just spamming it up with these giant lengthy cringy failure comments and I mean glancing through the mills very obvious that he didn't understand my position either so you know it's like okay whatever I've made an enemy shit happens you know I've that's nothing new to me I have a lot of enemies hmm and then I was pretty much gonna let it slip and then I was informed that he's actually going to be coming on friend it's livestream so at this point I was like okay so now I've got some guy who's going to go live on the internet and basically try to discredit me and he's gonna you know obviously judging by his comments completely misrepresent my view and try to make me look like an idiot and you know he's talking in philosophical language so that's enough to confuse a lot of people and he's also a vegan so that's enough to also confuse a lot of people so I was like you know what I'm just gonna go on and just fucking smash him I'm just gonna go on the livestream so I just messaged friended and I just went on the livestream at completely just demolished him it's down below he couldn't keep pace at all he couldn't stay on point he couldn't answer the very simple question I was asking him hmm so he was just all over the place couldn't handle himself in a debate at all so after I got eventually I just got frustrated cuz he wouldn't answer my question he was just being dishonest and evasive so at that point I left the stream I was just like you know fuck this I think anyone with a brain can tell what's up here and then later I see him post this big fucking cringy beast of a failure of a response to me which is what we're going to go through right now and then a bit after that I see him post this grotesque Frankenstein of a modification of name the trait look at this look at this lengthy garbled nonsense of an argument so we'll go through that also after so I mean like if you guys want my opinion I mean like this isn't an argument this is just my take on the guy's character I think that he's got a lot of ego attached to all of this I think he needs to feel like the kind of ultimate logical force behind veganism I think that you know he didn't like me dismissing him and frankly blowing him off like he had no idea what he was talking about he really didn't like it it triggered him and he commented all over the place he didn't like me talking over him on stream and not letting him go off and ramble about bullshit and keeping him on point he really didn't like it he just simply did not like being bested intellectually so now he's ranting and the thing is this is a very dangerous place to come from intellectually especially in public because now you're not coming from a place of honesty now you're coming from a place of being triggered and not liking that you've been basically debunked so now you're not going to be have the force of honesty behind you now it's there's gonna be this just this element of dishonest self-interest to everything you're saying and I actually I expected a lot of people to be fooled by what he's saying but I actually think that you know usually Facebook kind of serves as a it's like it's like a test beforehand of kind of happy oh fuck this guy's getting booted off the stream you're not welcome here to provide some retarded arguments while I'm trying to talk about you how do I actually kick him off of this block I'll pro unblock him after so we can comment in the comment section but I don't want to deal with his bullshit during the stream hmm oh shit damn it accidentally deleted the wrong guy's message sorry race lever I hope I didn't block that guy fuck now I need to make sure he's not blocked god damn it this guy right here okay if I scroll up it will hold the messages in place ok so I think he's now been blocked I just don't want to deal with his bullshit while I'm trying to stream anyway so I went over to hmm I went over to Facebook and posted and Facebook is usually kind of like a test beforehand of how people are going to receive information before I put it on YouTube and actually like people seem to just understand this guy's retarded so it's like hey I think this is actually gonna be kind of easy to go through so I just posted his grotesque deformity of a modification of name the trait and the comments on here are telling for sure so I mean I'll just show you what we've got sorry for my kind of slow internet okay so you have explained name the trait in the simplest form on multiple occasions I do not understand why people still don't understand it it's so simple my head hurts from all the stupidity well yeah do you tell me Phil Oh clearly has an ego issue the stream I saw made it pretty clear yep overcomplicated the whole position by adding like what's that a six six or seven more axioms lmao got Sarah Nicole here go sub to her I don't know if she's still making content but go sub anyway what does he mean by an empirical argument is necessary for a situation was so she just don't even know what he's saying there lack of clarity and here's here's a comment that I think we're gonna see a good bit more of at first I thought you were being unreasonably hostile to this dude but dear Lord he's cringy definitely has some ego issues so it's gonna become increasingly clear to people I'm sure he'll produce a response to this video I'll actually give you guys the opportunity to decide if I respond again to him because I know like what happened with eyes well it gets to a point that it's just like you guys are just like I've seen enough we get it we understand you're right we don't need to watch any more of this so I'll let you choose after we see whatever he says to this what do we have here do y'all think Ben Shapiro straight prediction okay that's kind of irrelevant and then here's another one having lurked in their forum since it was the vegan atheist forum back in 2015 I came to really respect brimstone salad the admin that's philosophical vegan he seems very worldly and is quite competent in arguing on a variety of subjects he even argued a flat back to reality which practically makes him a miracle worker in this case though I must agree with you I don't see how it would be beneficial to complicate your argument to this degree on Twitter he preface is his own version of the argument with assertions that you're twisting logic and being dishonest which is unshared well bullshit probably just an attempt to goad you into responding well Phil oh you've gotten what you want and now this video which I'm sure will be massively uploaded is going to remain on the internet forever as a mark a medal of retardation for you then we got an elegant okay hmm so let's uh let's see here let's give this a run-through and expose some stupidity okay so let me just get a drink of water before we delve into this nonsense hmm and actually I also just want to check the stream health and just make sure that everything is good here yes the stream health is good that is fantastic hmm and I also just want to get back to this article okay all right so ask yourself aka Isaac hashtag name the trait logical fallacy I think you mean Isaac's like with a you know apostrophe s friended discussion follow up details by philosophical vegan okay so ask yourself wanted an answer to something I could not I couldn't give him okay so right off the bat okay well I'll read a bit more this whether I would concede that he was a moral Objectivist apparently the only concern he had no it's not the only concern I had but it's the initial criticism that you made of me and I'm going to take a moment here to clear up exactly why philosophical vegan does not know what he's talking about because once you're clear on this the whole thing he's saying will pretty much start to crumble apart you'll understand what he's doing wrong so there are different senses of what it means to be a moral Objectivist you can use the term in an ontological sense which is how I always use the term and this is referring ontology it has to do with the the nature of being basically so the etymology is Anto I think basically means being and logy obviously logic so you're talking about the logic of being you're talking about the nature of existence how things exist so in the ontological sense of the term moral objectivism I'm a moral subjectivist I don't believe that morality exists without a mind there to actually consider something immoral and then there's also an epistemological sense of the term moral objectivism and that refers more to like how we know right so in that sense i am a moral Objectivist i hold the same kind of position as someone like sam harris and once you actually define what you mean by good and bad once you define morality well then you can talk objectively about what is or is not moral so ontologically i'm a subjectivist epistemologically I am a Objectivist ontological subjectivist epistemological Objectivist so to make this totally clear a good analogy well let me explain with morality first so obviously the conditions the mathematical reality of what would produce the most well-being that exists objectively that exists whether there's a subject there to comprehend it or not but the notion that it is good that requires a subject there's good is a subjective concept it is the notion that something is good it's not the universe doesn't have an opinion okay so ontological II I'm a subjectivist then epistemological II I'm an Objectivist because I think once you define what you mean by morality then just like Hera says you can use all the tools of science to determine what is the most moral action okay so now that you understand that think back to philosophical vegans initial comments so what he said on my video he basically said that I'm a moral Objectivist now there's two interpretations of what's happening here either he is using the term in a different sense than me so using it in the epistemological sense in which case his comet is completely irrelevant it's the equivalent of me going on a Sargon video and saying hey Sargon by the dictionary definition you're a FEMINIST well no fucking shit I'm sure he is obviously when he's saying that he's an anti-feminist he's using a definition of feminism that refers to the character of the modern movement he's not talking about the dictionary definition of the term feminist so if you're using moral objectivism in the epistemological sense then you're literally just using a different definition than me and making an irrelevant comment and then if you're using it in the ontological sense well then your statement is just false because I don't believe that morality exists in an ontological objective sense it requires a subject so it's one or the other and I pretty much cornered him into this right away and I think that's why he was so dishonest and evasive throughout the whole stream because you know he either either concedes that he's referring to ontological objectivism in which case he's wrong or he holds the fact that he's using it in the epistemological sense in which his comment in which case his comment is irrelevant so are you wrong or are you just saying something irrelevant I mean that's your choice hmm okay so ask yourself wanted an answer to something I couldn't give him well no it's not hard to answer if I tell you I do not believe that morality exists without a subject there to consider something moral then that's literally all you need to know anything else is just beside the point that puts me in the category of being a moral subjectivist in the ontological sense I do not believe that it exists in an ontological objective manner so it's not hard to comprehend I think the reason that you're trying to make it seem like that is because you knew if you conceded on that then you'd be forced into this dichotomous choice of okay well you're either using the term in the same way as me and you're wrong or you're using it in a different way and your comment is irrelevant okay so just a little stream health check okay so this is good my streaming health is a lot better than normal I'm actually quite happy with that I also want to make sure that little block was successful yeah I don't see him spamming up my comments okay hmm so let's keep going he was extremely and oh yeah my only concern was that he is getting him to acknowledge I'm not a moral Objectivist I know it wasn't my only concern it's the starting point though because that's what you initially said about me so I'm not gonna let you move to some other topic he was extremely insistent about it yeah absolutely I'm not letting you move off points so absolutely as very insistent and it became and became quite angry when I wouldn't agree with his argument well I became quite frustrated yeah because you were being evasive I mean it's very obvious you've got a dichotomous choice you're either using the term in the same sense as me in which case you're wrong or you're using it in a different sense in which case what you're saying is irrelevant so your choice uh let's continue so the reason I could not answer his question is that his argument for name the trait okay now you're talking about something else we're talking we're talking about my position on a moral objectivism so starting to refer to name the trait you're trying to take it to a different area so all you need to know again to answer the question is do I think that morality requires a subject to exist I do I'm not a moral Objectivist it's all there is to it and other arguments not sure what you're referring to there contain logical fallacies though so this will be interesting I will explain why that's relevant in a minute after I explained the nature of the fallacy well again it's not relevant if I I'm telling you right I mean I don't want to fucking bore the chat's brains out it's just I mean it's such an obvious point I'm amazed that you don't understand this I'm literally telling you philosophical retard that I do not believe that morality exists without a subject you require a subject and if you're saying it is you're just wrong I mean how can the concept of goodness how can how can the notion that something is good exist without someone to hold the notion I mean it requires a subject okay so let's see him get into this supposed fallacy okay so this is just my argument written as I always write it so there are many viable arbitrary answers to this because the trait can be arbitrary arbitrary is not the same as contradiction okay so two things I've never said that arbitrary is the same thing as contradiction I mean that's just you being a retard that reminds me of these comments actually so you over here I've seen you say intelligent opponents like friended are going to continue making a fool of you until you correct the mistake and improve your arguments from a moral Universalist position despite what your echo-chamber of fans may be telling you oh yeah my echo chamber they never disagree with me yeah so I mean I I would just pause it right off the bat that someone who's saying that friended is an intelligent opponent when it comes to veganism is just profoundly confused about like basically whatever they're talking about right here and here's another just while we're over here when he asked things like paraphrasing would you be okay with aliens coming to Earth and eating you and when he rejects the answer that no non my morality but the aliens would be okay with it in their morality maybe Isaac thinks this is a logical contradiction it isn't it's only arbitrary which is something else so know it objectively is true to say that it's a contradiction to simultaneously accept and reject the same argument for murder if you're saying species justifies murder and species doesn't justify murder you're contradicting yourself Phil oh that's all there is to it okay so hmm let's get back to this idiocy okay so no there are not viable arbitrary answers so he's got three down here a divine command moral subjectivism and cultural moral relativism so just to quickly Merc all those who just run them through name the trade okay God says it's okay for me to kill you do you accept it no so it's trajectory to deploy it subjectivism so I subjectively believe it's okay to kill you I'd you accept it no so it's contradictory to deploy it and then cultural moral relativism my culture says it's okay to kill you do you accept it no so it's contradictory to deploy it it's pretty simple now I can I guess read through all these in detail I don't want to be accused of not dealing with the whole thing but I mean it's it's pretty much all just the same point so it's just divine command God said that animals don't have souls moral value the trade of souls again you just you know appeal to God to murder human they don't accept a contradiction moral subjectivism I don't care about animals the trade is my caring if you care them it's wrong for you according to your morals if somebody kills me on the basis of not caring about me then that is wrong according to my morals but maybe okay according to their morals oh the friended point we've got a genius they can make up any rules they want there's no objective basis to call one better than the other okay so again subjectively I think it's okay to kill you do you accept it no so you can't appeal to subjectivism and then cultural moral relativism according to my culture it's okay so it's okay if my culture changed then it might not be okay in the past it was okay to keep slaves because that was culture other cultures have different rules and their morals are wrong according to my cultures morals my culture this guy is so fucking rambley it's unbelievable my cultures morals might be wrong according to theirs there's no objective basis to call one better than the other but there is an objective basis to say that you're contradicting yourself if you simultaneously deploy and reject the argument culture though hmm and then so basically all of these specific arbitrary traits can be pointed out to can be demonstrated to produce contradictions for any sane human if you run them through the argument and then arbitrary as a category you can also just run that through the argument obviously it's not you don't accept being discriminated against because arbitrary though so you're not you can't do that to someone else without contradicting yourself you could list these all day he says mostly variations on the same theme yeah you could list them all day and they would all produce contradictions hmm okay so and and this all he wants me to add this axiom before the fact of a premise of you can't make arbitrary distinctions we'll get into it he says that in down below but no you don't have to embed that from the start you can discover that by trying to plug arbitrary justifications into the argument so you don't understand the argument okay so let's continue conclusion does not follow from premise one and premise two okay that's just an assertion no argument and obviously that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence this down here is just you further asserting that I have to include things you don't actually make a case for it but I'll still provide evidence anyway so I mean if you're saying that creature has moral value and you can't distinguish that creature from I can't distinguish another creature from that creature in a way that would if true of the first call caused you to say that it doesn't deserve moral value then you're contradicting yourself by actually suggesting that that second creature does not deserve value as well so if that's too complicated for you to understand you can just do it with physical objects okay so I can lift brick a there's no difference between or no trait you know present in brick B which if true of brick a would make it possible for me to lift brick a so therefore it's contradictory to suggest that I can lift brick B well of course that's true and if there were such a trait if brick B could be lifted then whatever makes it liftable if you map those traits over to brick a then you could lift brick a - so this is just a basic formula to discover contradiction you know shoe one fits on my foot there's no difference between shoe two and there's no difference president shoe - which if president shoe one would make it possible for shoe one to not fit on my foot sorry I forget if I started with fitting or not fitting so let me just start that again shoe one does not fit on my foot there's no difference between shoe two and shoe one which if true if shoe one would cause shoe one to fit my foot so therefore I'm contradicting myself by saying that shoe - would fit my foot and if you - does fit your foot then of course whatever it is that makes it possible for shoe two to fit your foot whatever trait or set of traits it is map them onto shoe one and now she one fits your foot as well so this is just a basic formula to discover contradiction if you if you accept that a creature has moral value then you can't deny that moral value to another creature who you can't distinguish from the first because that logic you apply it to the first you're gonna say well I can't distinguish you and any meaningful moral way but I'm just going to discriminate against you I mean you're not gonna accept it so it's contradictory so then he says this is a non sequitur obviously not a fucking argument provide evidence it's it's not a non sequitur if you understand that a creature has moral value and that you can't differentiate another creature from that creature in a way that if true of the first would cause it to lose moral value then it's contradictory to suggest that the second does not deserve moral value hmm okay so p2 is irrelevant on its own I don't see how that's the case they don't see your evidence there and doesn't lead to the conclusion without additional assumptions so you say so an additional premise or two or three depending on how you word them is needed for the argument to be valid Oh Phil oh I know that you would love to be relevant and you would love to feel that I actually need your help to make an ethical argument but unfortunately you're just a retard and you don't know what you're talking about so p3 arbitrary so a search arbitrary assertions of moral value are not acceptable moral value must be justified by some relevant non arbitrary trait I know you don't have to assume that beforehand you can just plug arbitrary traits or the category arbitrary into name the trait and realize that it produces contradictions unless you're okay being discriminated against on on an arbitrary basis yourself okay then relevant traits can be defined in a way that leads into p2 and this argument so p4 a relevant trade is a trait that would cause us to deem ourselves valueless if we lacked it so that's just redundant I mean I already talked about what a trait would have to be in p2 right up here so it's a trait that if lacking in humans would actually cause us to deem ourselves valueless so that's just retarded repetition don't know why you'd say that and then in other words you have to insert a variation of the Golden Rule into the discussion I know you don't you can reject the Golden Rule name the traits just going to demonstrate your position is inconsistent if you try to basically argue for two different standards of treatments when you can't actually justify them on any kind of rational basis then we're it's just going to demonstrate that's inconsistent you don't actually have to accept the Golden Rule let me just get a drink of water okay and then hmm in other words you have to insert a very oh yes oh okay and possibly even a clarification upon what it means to deem oneself valueless so there is no question here it's important to define things clearly particularly when they have substantial implications to the conclusion and could be interpreted in different could be interpreted different ways as this can be as this can be mmm so then he says p5 any defense of personal interest is an indication of self value now I don't necessarily disagree I mean if you're trying to defend your personal interest and you obviously value yourself on some level but you don't have to embed that as an assumption if someone says that they don't believe in human moral value then you say okay so it's fine to murder humans you don't have a problem with that and they have to either bite the bullet on that position or if they say that there's something wrong with that argument well then it's produced a contradiction because they're not willing to accept the basis of not having moral value supposedly to justify discriminating against them okay so these premises cannot be assumed you don't I mean I'm what what the fuck are you talking about assumed so I'm not I'm not assuming this first one that you can just realize by plugging on the category arbitrary or specific arbitrary traits into the argument this one well I am essentially assuming that but it's already articulated in p2 I don't know why you'd repeat it and then an attempted defense of personal interest is an indication of self value I mean that's something that I would personally agree with but it's not necessary for the argument none of those things are actually necessary to demonstrate contradictions it's saying that simultaneously using and rejecting the same justification is a contradiction that is not dependent on any of these particular premises that you've laid out here so it's just beside the point okay that's sneaky stuff that apologists do okay so now it's taking some jabs at me when they're trying to when they're making tricky and not valid arguments to prove God oh okay I'm really comparable to an apologist just gonna check the stream health nice got some good stream health okay back to the argument hmm we don't need to take after apology oh yeah I'm taking after apologists I'm sure apologists with bad form and argument Karnas already claimed were mentally deficient due to lack of nutrients we don't need to provide them support for that ridiculous certian oh yeah okay if name the trait isn't a valid argument to destroy carnism i would love to see this guy attempt to argue carnism against name to trade i would decimate him okay so let me be clear the propositions I added our good premises no they complicate the argument unnecessarily they're ridiculous to add in the first one arbitrary you can obviously you would reach that by plugging stuff into the argument I'm sorry to repeat myself but I mean I just want this idiot to actually comprehend what's happening here and why this is stupid irrelevant trade this this is good but it's already encapsulated in premise two and then premise five I agree with it but it's not good as a premise because it's not necessary to plug in if someone tries to deny human moral value then you just point out the consequences of that I mean just plug it into the argument okay you have no value it's okay to murder you hmm okay so all right let me just find my place again but they are also Objectivist Universalist realist parentheses well if you hold them universally they're a quote moral system unquote can be arbitrary without having internal contradiction yeah never said otherwise just by adding these premises you easily defeat all of those arguments no they're already defeated so watch me to feed them without referring to any of your retarded premises religion okay so religion says it's okay to kill you do you accept it no so it's contradictory to deploy it next moral subjectivism says it's okay to kill you mime subjectively okay with that you accept it no then you can't deploy it next culture says it's okay to kill you do you accept that justification knows you can't deploy it next okay so these are easy premises to add well yeah it's easy to write anything on to an argument but it makes it unnecessarily cumbersome and it's just pointless have their and let's be real the only reason you want them there is to feel relevant you don't like the fact that without any need for any help from fucking philosophical vegan the background logician of veganism I was able to create a fantastic logical argument for veganism that's being used all over the place that people love better than anything that you've ever created quite frankly so I'm sorry if that triggers you but reality reality speaks there's a reason that that argument takes often that people like it okay so and they're easy to defend yeah I mean the the ease of defense is not that's just irrelevant whether they're necessary in the argument allowing arbitrary assertions now you're talking about why arbitrary though is a bad argument but you can just do that with name the trait by plugging arbitrary in okay so this is what I wanted to discuss but ask yourself had other ideas yeah I wasn't letting you move off point I'm a moral we were starting with what you started with which was the claim that I am a moral Objectivist and again you're either using the word in the same sense as me in which case you're wrong or you're using it in the epistemological sense in which case your comment is irrelevant so you're really trapped there you only have two options he was set on working me I think I did murky very thoroughly anyone can go watch I get pretty annoyed on the stream so be warned based on my claim that he's a moral Objectivist as an implication of his hidden premises an argument I don't think he bothered to read so the hidden the Objectivist premises that you insert into my argument that I don't insert it into my argument interesting that these premises that I am NOT articulating are somehow making me an Objectivist again how exactly do I believe that morality exists independent of a subject you want to explain that to me fellow I'm literally telling you you fucking idiot that I believe that morality requires a subject okay get this through your thick fucking stupid skull I do not believe that morality exists without a subject to consider something moral fuck Jesus Christ man what a idiot okay so mm-hmm so yeah I mean I don't see how any of those you know suppose the premises that you're inserting into my argument demonstrate that I'm an Objectivist tell me how I believe that morality exists without a subject I would be very interested to hear it and and don't go with some absolutely completely retarded red herring of response and start pointing to things like the fact that pie is true regardless of whether anyone's there to perceive pie okay that is so far from comprehending what I'm saying obviously Phil oh you fucking moron the conditions that we evaluate as morality those exist objectively the mathematical reality of what produces the most well-being and suffering the moral landscape that exists regardless of whether there is bear to perceive it or not but and get this through your thick fucking skull the notion that it is good requires eight subject Jesus Christ okay so let's let's continue so he didn't care what my argument was no because you're going off point we can address your argument against name the trait later you need to first actually just address your initial bullshit criticism of me are you saying I'm an ontological Objectivist if so then no I don't believe that morality exists without a subject and are you using the term epistemological II well in that sense sure I'm an Objectivist but that's not the sense I'm using the term so your comment is irrelevant um if I agree that he wasn't a moral Objectivist based on a definition that he does not understand oh I'm sure I'm sure I don't understand the definition I literally told you what definition I'm using I had to keep saying I don't know if he has risen even based on robust realism I don't know why you'd say you have to say that I mean I just I can't understand I had the old me sorry the only conclusion that I can reach here is that he understood he was in the death trap from the second that he got into the discussion and he was just trying to weasel away from the point the whole time it's it's really like just disgusting behavior people like this annoy me so much it's hard to know why someone like this annoys me so much I think that it's the people who truly think they're making sense that just drive me nuts it's like Jesus Christ oh sorry I'm getting messages from people just shut that off okay so I had to keep saying I don't know if he has there isn't based even on robust realism okay well then you're just an idiot I'm literally telling you I don't believe that morality exists without a subject so if you don't understand that you're honestly a fucking moron a little stream health check nice okay you stop stream health problems all the time but it's uh doesn't seem to be that bad anymore oops wrong tab hmm okay so let me find my way back the reason I could not answer is because of those fallacies well the only fallacy I saw you pointed out was a non sequitur and that I mean you just demonstrated your lack of comprehension of the trade when you tried to call it a non sequitur I mean just just try to wrap your head around this okay Phil oh so I cannot lift brick a there's no difference between brick a and brick be no trade present in brick B which if true of brick a would make me capable of lifting brick a without establishing that difference it's a contradiction to suggest that I can lift brick be okay and if that trait could be named then I would be able to lift brick a all right so if you I mean I just don't know how many times I have to repeat myself it's not it's not logically consistent to to deny moral value to animals based on a reason that you would not accept for yourself and the reason that there is no reason is not a reason you'd accept okay so mm-hmm let's let's keep going which becomes oh and implicit premises well I mean implicit premise ease I forget what your three were arbitrary you know that's not a premise of something you can reach after the fact you the what irrelevant trade is that's already articulated in number two so it's it's already there and then what was the third one that oh I've forgotten it I might need to scroll up and try and use my brain power oh yeah the self self value stuff that if you and any attempted defense of personal interest as an indication of self value no you can just plug in lack of you know human moral value into the argument and see if you'll accept that as a justification for murder hmm okay so total bullshit when you try to call them hidden premises and shit like this okay so which become which become more apparently held when he states that informally during debates in response to people's challenges just an assertion no evidence until discussing and resolving those fallacies you haven't demonstrated that they're fallacies and I don't know how he would prefer to resolve them he might drastically change his argument I love how this guy thinks that I need to drastically change my argument I know that you would love to feel that no one can come up with a rational argument without you Phil oh but I'm sorry I have it's better than anything that you've ever come up with it's taken off more it's probably the best formulation of the ethical arguments so far and I know that bugs you so enjoy knowing that I don't actually know what position that would commit him to oh my god it's like this guy is mentally retarded so I mean I I don't want to drive the chat fucking nuts with repeating this so many times are they going insane this might be behind the ball but it's like I just I don't know how many fucking times I need to repeat myself let me just find my way back to where I was that I did to do did it did to G my dress I don't know what position that would commit him to you obviously ontologically speaking I'm a subjectivist epistemologically speaking I'm an Objectivist not hard to understand because of his acceptance of those fallacies that you haven't demonstrated are fallacies and his belief that his argument is logically sound which it is and you haven't demonstrated otherwise it is clear that he does not fully comprehend his own views no it's clear that you don't comprehend my views and that they are not consistent I don't I don't know what you like I mean they're obviously consistent I don't know if your perspective is inconsistent but your understanding of my argument is wrong I will fully agree that he thinks he is oh this is so pretentious this is just so condescending I will fully agree that ask yourself is fucking stupid enough to think he's a moral Objectivist and that he's fucking dumb enough to be sorry I had to call and that he's fucking stupid enough to think he's a subjectivist but that was never a point of contention I never doubted his stupidity and that he's dumb enough to actually believe these things about himself so again it's just just condescending pretentious bullshit and I mean for the fucking millionth time ontological subjectivist epistemological objective it's not hard to understand since he is asserting at various points non arbitrary and the golden rule no no I'm not right there already wrong okay so non arbitrary I'm not asserting that as a fucking premise you can try to plug the category arbitrary or specific arbitrary traits into the argument and they'll generate contradictions unless you accept being discriminated against for those reasons and then the Golden Rule no I'm not assuming that obviously if you don't adhere to the golden rule name the trait will just demonstrate your position is inconsistent it's not that you objectively must abide by the golden rule as unspoken assumptions which are great assumptions but they're of moral objectivism universalism only if you hold them universally and they need to be clearly our take I know they don't none of none of that is necessary to point out a contradiction and if you're gonna say it is the Bo P is on you yeah fuckin moron okay so I think it would commit him to at least minimal realism and universalism well I mean obviously I mean it depends on how you define those terms but like I mean it's generally speaking safe to call me a universalist which is a definition of moral objectivism but not the definition that i use i mean i my system can be universalized so you know fair enough universalism is also seen as moral objectivism as per the definition it wouldn't let him pass himself off as a subjectivist okay so this right here is super shady so he literally knows that I'm not using that definition and I mean here I'll just I'll just look up the definition for a second just so you guys can see what he's doing so I mean there's like multiple definitions so on screen I had just the Wikipedia of the different definitions I had this fucking definition highlighted I'm literally not even kidding I had it highlighted and he goes to this definition which is the moral universalism definition so again he's either using a different definition in which case his point is irrelevant or he's using the same definition in which case his point is wrong so I mean don't know what else to fucking say to that hmm okay so aside from him indicating misunderstanding of universalism the fuck he thinks it means that a moral system can be universalized or something like that and that it's totally different from moral objectives oh fucking idiot okay so two problems there first of all it does mean that it can be universalized me just fucking google the damn words you idiot moral universalism okay moral universalism also called moral objectivism or universal morality is the meta ethical position that some system of ethics or a universal ethic applies universally fucking obvious okay get it through your damn head and then second point trying to suggest that I think I'm not an Objectivist by that definition and just slip it in without like really acknowledging the two different definitions on the table incredibly shady unbelievably shady so obviously when I'm saying I'm not an Objectivist I'm talking about ontology you fucking idiot I'm not talking a epistemology in the epistemological sense I am an Objectivist everyone knows this people have heard me say that morality is as embedded as science or logic and that once you define what's moral you can apply all the tools of science to determine what's moral anywhere in the universe this is not complicated you idiot so please please please stop trying to shove the definitions together and act like I'm an Objectivist by one I am by another I'm not if you're using the definition by which I am an Objectivist you're using it in a different sense than the way that I used it and your point is relevant if you are using the term in the same sense as me hmm sorry then then you're wrong because I'm not an ontological Objectivist hmm okay so aside from him indicating misunderstanding of universalism he tried to he tried to argue in defense of his subjectivism okay hmm so I don't I don't know what you're really talking about when you say that but I'll just I'll keep reading so his argument was that he thinks that there can be many different consistent moral systems well I don't know what what you see me as making an argument for when I say that so I just I don't know how you're using the word subjectivism but yeah I mean obviously there can be you know you could generate but I assume probably an infinite amount of consistent moral systems but the only one I've seen him offer as an alternative is that of Hannibal Lecter another's plenty of alternatives it's extremely easy so I mean you could make a moral system that's universal you could say whatever brings objects closer to a fixed point in space is what's moral so now anywhere in the universe you can determine the morality of an action by asking if it brings an object closer to that point in space so if I punch you and you fall in the direction of that point well that's moral if I punch you and you fall away from that point it's not moral you could do the same thing with heat you could say whatever generates the most heat is the most moral that's universal okay so those are morality --zz that are fairly like useless to humans and that we would not ever adhere to for any reason but they're certainly consistent and they're certainly universal okay and from the perspective of like some kind of like AI or some being that doesn't comprehend I mean it's that's like on the same on the same footing as any other moral argument just depends on what what set of axioms you want to accept but we don't want to accept moralities like that because they're just you know functionally useless for humans okay so that's a weak argument no you're just a weak being and I think most people could understand that the complete rejection of moral value does not make a moral system no the rejection of any kind of system of value or just like applying no rules to morality it's not a system but it's a consistent position if you just like across the board reject moral value with the rejection of all numbers and mathematical operators make a mathematical system no but I don't see how you're arguing against anything I've ever said when you say that Hannibal could form a self-centered moral system that gave him moral value personally and denied it to others but this clearly fails to comply with the logic not actually valid logic of even asks yourself ask yourselves general argument sorry I'm talking too fast cuz I'm just fuckin annoyed with this okay so here's another misunderstanding when I'm saying that Hannibal system is consistent I'm talking about consistency between his views on other humans and his views on animals I'm not talking about I mean if you're gonna say he personally believes he has moral value which I'm not sure if Hannibal's feel like portrayed in the movies as holding that position or not it's not something that I'm even thinking about when making this statement then of course if he has moral value you can do what what Phil oh here is done and get from that to that other humans have moral value and get from that to that animals have moral value hmm technically you could even just get from from the first one to veganism so when I'm talking about him being consistent I'm talking about consistency between his views on humans and animals I'm not I'm not talking about if you know some people say Hannibal like personally considers himself a god or something like I'm not I'm not addressing his view on himself other humans and animals his positions they're consistent with each other it's the same thing as when I say destiny is consistent you know it's like destiny maintains consistency between his views on other humans and his views on animals I'm pretty sure destiny wouldn't be personally okay getting merked for a lot of those reasons and you might be able to find contradictions between his views on himself and his views on other humans and then once you use those contradictions to get him to a broader morality on other humans then argue from that broader morality to veganism so when I'm saying he's consistent again I'm talking about consistency between his views on other humans and his views on animals I'm not even thinking of his views on himself so it's just a misunderstanding of what I'm even talking about okay so it's hard to imagine him disagreeing with that since he thinks his argument is valid okay and you haven't demonstrated why it's not Val it is Philip I mean I just I don't understand how someone can be this retarded it's you're like a flesh-eater it's not logically consistent to think that discriminating against one being and not the other based on the same argument makes sense it's not okay to apply an argument in one context and then reject it in another okay if you can't differentiate two creatures ethically it does not make any kind of sense to say that one has value and the other doesn't if you bootstrap one ethnic lis and you can't differentiate it from the other you'd be contradicting yourself by not bootstrapping ethics for that creature as well okay so I would ask ask yourself to name the alternative moral system I've already done that you can generate them indefinitely so you can do proximity-based you could do heat-based you could like literally come up with just any amount of universal moral systems it's just most of them aren't desirable I'd agree with you that a well-being based system is what we as humans want but the notion that no other systems are consistent doesn't make sense and if a sentient AI had some other universal system in its interest then you know you and you just programmed that into it you wouldn't necessarily be able to argue it out of that position it's not like there's some objective underlying truth to morality you can create multiple consistent Universal systems okay so that said I'm unsure if this if the resolutions of these contradictions would commit him to robust moral realism as per the first definition he highlighted hmm no I'm obviously not I mean it's like it's unbelievable I don't like I I don't know how many times they'll have to repeat myself to this fucking loon bag I do not believe that morality exists without a subject okay it does not have an objective existence so if you if you don't understand that in that sense I'm a moral subjectivist you might be retarded or you might be just ego driven I mean it's like the guy thinks fucking friend it makes good arguments that's the caliber of intellectual we're dealing with right here okay mm-hmm but it's all
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NonZeroSum
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Re: Transcripts for sourcing.

Post by NonZeroSum »

okay so then he just uses the definition of robust moral realism which it's a bit of a weird definition like I'm talking I mean that is generally what I'm talking about but I'm talking about the notion that morality exists objectively or subjectively but it's also not clear what he thinks and independence is so this this is just a massive red herring so he's going to all the stuff like in what sense does pie exist like pie is still going to be the ratio of I'm sorry if my math is bad and this is incorrect but the ratio of what is it a circles circumference to diameter or circumference to radius I think its circumference to diameter whatever it's like you know pi is still a mathematical concept regardless of whether someone is there to observe PI or not okay Phil oh when we're talking about morality the conditions that we evaluate as morality they exist in that sense so the moral landscape the mathematical reality of what will produce the most well-being that exists regardless of whether someone is there to perceive it that exists objectively sure now wrap your head around this it's not hard the notion that that is good that exists subjectively you fucking moron so try to get that through your head okay so then hmm it's not clear what he thinks mind independence is so this is a big red herring he gets into it below I tried to nail him down on what he thought that was he wasn't interested in answering no I'm not interested in going off point I literally made it abundantly clear to you that I do not believe that morality exists without a subject it requires a subject and if I mean if you don't get that I just don't I don't understand how you cannot understand that by that definition I'm a moral Objectivist the only what I think here is that you probably noticed what would happen if you conceded that which is now you're forced into this dichotomous choice of either you're wrong in if you're using the definition the same way as me or you're using the other definition in which case you're right but it's irrelevant so I think you probably perceived that and started dodging that would be my best guess but no I wasn't interested in answering that because we're talking about something I'm not letting you take it off point so that I could have the information I need at answer his question no it's not that's not necessary information to answer my question I mean I'm sorry this I should just label this is why weren't you guys that this stream might generate a fucking brain aneurysm because I'm just gonna have to keep repeating myself I don't believe that morality exists without a subject Jesus Chris okay so that brief one sentence Wikipedia summary is not enough to encapsulate the definition of robust realism a much more useful outline of robust realism oh just the unnecessary levels of complexity I mean it reminds me of his cringy fucking attempt to remake my argument look at this look at this grotesque deformity Jesus Christ we'll get to that okay so the robust model of moral realism commits moral realist to three theses the semantic thesis so the primary semantic role of moral principles such as right and wrong is to refer to moral properties such as rightness and wrongness of that moral statement such as honesty as good and slavery is unjust purport to represent moral facts and expect express propositions propositions not pop positions I'm not a infant here that are true or false or approximately true largely false and so on well they're true conditional and they're true conditionally on the assumption that you've defined morality the elec thesis I don't know if I'm saying that right some moral prints power positions are in fact true again they're true conditionally on the assumption that you've defined morality they aren't objectively true in an ontological sense and then the metaphysical thesis most propositions are true moral propositions are true when actions or other objects of moral assessment have been have the relevant moral properties so that the relevant moral facts obtain where these facts and properties are robust their metaphysical status whatever it is is not relevant ly different from that certain types from that of certain types of ordinary non moral facts and properties so again it's the moral facts become indistinguishable from other facts once you've defined morale once you've defined goodness once you've defined morality right so a I mean the the factual level of there being a moral landscape and a mathematical reality to what generates the most well being I mean that is true but the notion that that being at one or the other place on the landscape is actually good that requires a subject so I mean moral statements are always true conditional and they're only true conditional on the assumption that you've actually defined morality then he's got the minimal model here ie moral universalism leaves off the metaphysical thesis treating it as a matter of contention among real it I mean just why do we even need to get into these fucking it's like a dress what's on the table don't go into all these fucking random philosophical debates like the nature of mind independence or all this shit it's like I'm literally telling you Phil oh what I'm saying when I use the word I'm telling you I'm referring to the ontological status of morality and it's like you just ramble you just don't get it okay so hmm the final metaphysical thesis is of some complexity in nater and I discussed it at some length I doubt ask yourself is given it any thought and I don't read your fucking shit no I mean I've given thought to the nature of morality I've never given really thought to like this specific metaphysical thesis and I'm not like trying to make fun of it it's like these are interesting discussions the reason I'm making fun of it is because he's going all over the place and he's off point you know I would also laugh if you started talking about quantum physics and not because I think quantum physics is a joke or not to be taken seriously just because it would be very much beside the point but no I've given it quite a lot of thought like the general nature in which morality exists or the nature of morality meta ethics ontology all that kind of stuff that's like my wheelhouse basically and I mean I've been very clear about it the landscape exists objectively there's a mathematical reality to what will produce the most well being the most suffering etc but the notion that that's good is fundamentally subjective epistemological Objectivist ontological ontological subjectivist not hard to understand so then here he's doing the same stuff you know as pi there's gravity an objective force is pion objective concept what is independence me and so he's trying to get at the notion that some things exist in a state that's you know it's not in subjective reality it's not in an objective reality like the notion that a ball will fall towards you know a center of mass of or like an object of bigger mass like a planet if it's dropped within range of that planet like that's a true fact regardless of whether that's actually happening anywhere in the universe pi is the ratio I hope I'm saying this right of this of the circles circumference to diameter regardless of whether there's any fucking circles in the universe so I understand that and the mathematical reality of what will produce the most well being that exists regardless of whether people are there to perceive it or not sure but the notion that it is good requires a object okay so then he oh this is like the most annoying shit so here he's getting all into mind-independent so the robust ma I'm not gonna I'll spare you guys this shit down here I'll read this one the robust model and the minimal model also disagree over how to classify morale subjectivism while you're talking about that I have no fucking idea roughly the view that moral facts are not mind independent in the relevant sense has got that highlighted but that moral statements may still be true while they're only true conditional the historical Association of subjectivism with moral anti realism in large part explains why the robust model of moral realism has been dominant even if only implicitly both in the traditional and contemporary philosophical literature on meta ethics okay so mind-independent in the relevant sense what is the relevant sense well let's let's put it this way philosophical vegan how where does the notion that something is good exists without a person to hold that notion in their head it's the notion that something is good requires a subject the reality of what will produce the most well-being that mathematical landscape that we can apply all the tools of science and economics and physics and everything to to determine what will produce the most well-being that exists regardless of whether someone's there to perceive it that is mind-independent the notion that it's good is mind dependent so unless you're going to explain how the notion of good is mind independent then this is all fucking nonsense beside the point so here I mean he's just getting more into mind independence oh shit I should check the stream health just make sure everything's good yep looking good okay so you know it's getting into mind and dependence and just getting at the fact that the notion of mind independence is a question in philosophy which it is so there's there is like real discussion around like in what sense does you know the notion of a perfect circle exist I mean surely that concept is like coherent and exists regardless of whether anyone's there to experience it or like the notion of like pie that's still a coherent and true concept so I mean there is an interesting discussion there to be had about mind independence and I mean my general thought on that kind of stuff is that those things are true but they don't necessarily like exist I mean for to say you know that's it's true to say that a ball dropped will fall towards the earth but it's not actually happening anywhere in the universe or in anyone's subjective experience so that's more like a truth statement than an existence statement but either way I wouldn't even get sidetracked into all of that stuff in a debate because that's an interesting philosophical discussion there's a lot of like openness there and that's not resolved but it's irrelevant to what we were talking about unless you're going to say that the notion of goodness is mind-independent which it obviously isn't okay well that wasn't very helpful no no it wasn't it's completely off point but it does throw some doubt on the whole affair of that being any kind of qualifying test for subjectivism objectivism or even any necessary part of robust versus minimal realism absolute retardation so I mean again when I am talking about objectivism the sense in which I am using the term is you know I'm specifically talking about whether something exists subjectively or objectively so when when I say that morality does not exist objectively I mean I don't know how many times a lot to repeat this but I'm saying that the notion that something is good that requires a subject so again unless you're going to say that that is somehow mind independent not not the reality of the moral landscape that's mind-independent sure but unless you're gonna say that the notion of goodness is mind independent which is a completely incoherent sentence that just I don't there's no way to argue for that wig the universe doesn't have an opinion about what is good okay a subject has an opinion about what is good okay so anyway so let's let's just continue yeah so no it doesn't fucking cast doubt on the whole affair because what I am talking about I'm talking about how morality exists that that is the sense of the term that I'm using so I'm I mean fuck I'm not gonna repeat myself I'm just gonna drive you guys nuts okay so the I mean it's it's infuriating though to see someone fail this badly the fact that ask yourself thinks it's adequate to brush these questions under the rug I'm not I'm how the oh my Jesus Christ okay if you want to explain to me how the notion of goodness is mind-independent then we can have the conversation about mind independence if not you're bringing up a red herring don't tell me I'm brushing it under the rug fucking idiot indicates to me that he is there has not thought much on these matters no I mean I have thought a good bit on this stuff or he isn't even aware of the questions oh yes being educated by the master here neither says much about his competence in philosophy oh shit I think I just click the link god damn it it'll go back my Internet's just a little bit slow ok alright so in terms of his claims to subjectivism specifically it's useful to see the Wikipedia on ethical subjectivism redirects from moral subjectivism generally speaking subjectivism is a form of relativism unless you are religious and subscribe to divine command or some almost in to soar something indiscernibly similar see this to further confuse things no you fucking idiot we don't want to further confuse things we like simplicity ok it's a contradiction to simultaneously use and reject the same argument that's what name the trait points out it's an easy argument anyone with a brain can wrap their head around it there's a reason it's taking off and it's better than anything you've ever crafted so see us to further confuse things although there is general agreement on pretty much that point I made above again when I'm calling myself a subjectivist I'm talking about ontology I don't believe that morality exists without a subject ok so he can pick and choose his definitions pick and choose you oh my god oh my lord it's like he's and like this is either he's an idiot or he's dishonest I just this is unbelievable I literally told you that I understand there's more than one definition by the definition that I used I'm not an Objectivist and if you're saying I am you're objectively wrong explain to me how I think that morality exists without a subject and if you're using the other definition which is synonymous pretty much with universalism which is not the definition that I'm using then sure I'm an Objectivist but that is a separate point it's equivalent to coming again onto Sargon's video and saying well you're feminist by the dictionary definition well no shit I'm pretty sure he knows that yeah fucking idiot he's not using that definition so again you're either off point or you're incorrect choose your definition but to suggest that I'm cherry-picking my definition absolutely ridiculous I acknowledge both and I point out where I sit based on what definition you use you're the one who keeps trying to pack the two into one statement and say that I'm a moral Objectivist okay so then what else says he got here he can pick and choose his definitions like an idiot but I never claimed he specifically subscribed subscribed to robust realism and I made that clear okay so if you aren't claiming that if you're not using that sense of the word then you're using and this seems like the obvious thing that you're doing this is what I picture you to be doing then you're using the sense that's pretty much synonymous with universalism which is not what I'm talking about so you're making an irrelevant point that I'm already aware I'm an Objectivist in that sense and I have stated that I believe that you can approach morality objectively once you've defined it a million times it's all over my channel watch through my videos I'm agnostic on that point sorry on what point on what I subscribe to you well I mean it depends on how you define robust more moral realism I mean I'm talking about again the ontology I'm talking about the nature of morality I'm talking about the sense in which it exists and on a subjectivist in the sense that I believe that it requires a subject to exist okay he might he might not but universalism isn't something distinct from moral objectivism so here he is again trying to bundle these different definitions of Objectivism into one thing which is just it's like you tell me I'm picking and choosing my definitions when I'm sitting here acknowledging multiple definitions and telling you where I sit based on the definition you choose and you you projecting bitch are sitting there doing what you're criticizing me up and trying to bundle it all into one definition so universalism isn't something distinct from moral objectivism in the way that Randy and objectivism is that would permit you to ignore it as part of the may refer to lists on Wikipedia Romans recommends okay so let me be very clear for the retarded among us so universalism is absolutely categorically different than ontological objectivism okay those two things are not the same term universalism is synonymous pretty much with a different definition of moral objectivism which is the epistemological definition you're using but the ontological definition is as clearly different from the universal sense as Randy and objectivism is from the universal sense okay so I just the I don't I don't know how to explain this universalism is pretty much the same as one definition of Objectivism not the definition I'm using the definition I'm using the ontological sense of the word is absolutely categorically a different thing than moral universalism okay what seems increasingly clear is that he has no idea oh yeah geez I just don't understand what he believes no idea I don't know what I believe I'm just lost because he doesn't even know what these things mean or care to look closely at them to find out no Phil oh I know exactly what I think and I've made it abundantly clear to you throughout this video and I'm assuming that people are going to be able to understand it too hmm and for you to come in here and just use other definitions or try to bring up philosophical problems that are not directly relevant and call things fallacies or say that there's hidden premises without actually explaining how any of those things are necessary in order to point out a contradiction or you know without actually explaining how I am not moral Objectivist in the ontological sense I mean it's just it's just ridiculous it's like you're on this cascade of bullshit instead of acknowledging the very simple points that I've made to you okay um he doesn't even want care to know what these things mean or find out okay so and when friended yeah he likes friended he thinks a friend it has some good points and and for the record I like friended but I think friended is an example of pretty much abject confusion when it comes to veganism hmm okay so when friend had said that ask yourself wasn't a subjectivist by all accounts of the implications of ask yourselves arguments and behavior friended was right well again when it's just like you're sneaking in when you use that word you're sneaking in your definition of Objectivism subjectivism I'm talking ontologically you're talking about this sense that's equivalent to universalism where I've never denied that I'm an Objectivist so you're just you're just sneaking it in there it's like do you really think I can't spot this like honestly Phil oh I know that you have to go and type up these fucking math of assays and that your thought process is unnecessarily cumbersome okay I am the opposite I treat philosophy as a tool to sharpen my common sense I don't like it when it makes my thought unnecessarily cumbersome I can literally sit here rip a bowl go live and decimate everything you've said I don't need to fucking type up essays in the solitude of my house okay so um let's see what else there is here by all counts he is friended was right again you're slipping in your definition he was also correct to identify the broad category of moral objectivism as standing in opposition to subjectivism yeah of course but again if you're gonna call me an Objectivist or a subjectivist let's be specific about what sense we're using the term okay we're getting near the end here guys so I'll pop in and see what the chats up to you for a few minutes before I go to the next video maybe I don't know if I will it depends I did not take friend Ed's claims to be an assertion that ask yourself subscribe to robust moral realism okay well I mean if you're not saying that then you're using the term in the Universalist sense in your point is irrelevant and I've never denied being an Objectivist in that sense and I've said as much many times I don't know why friended gave ground on this in the discussion I don't know what exactly he means there I'm not sure what he's referring to friend and saying I think this is there's a point I mean some of you guys would go watch it but there's a point in that discussion where he tried Phil oh was trying to be like trying to basically say like well friend is using the word in the same way I am you're the one who's using it in this weird way so you know my point is still relevant because I'm responding to how a friend is using the word he was trying to take an angle kind of like that and I was just like friend had just said how he used the word and it was exactly how I was using the word friended thinks that I mean friended at least me and friended both understand what friended is saying about my position I mean friended thinks that I am a moral Objectivist that I can say objectively that my system is better than other systems I don't know if he thinks that now but that was his position and you can hear on the stream I'm just like there you go Phil oh so that is what friend is saying he thinks that I think my system can be called objectively better hmm so yeah that was kind of embarrassing for Phil oh and then what else maybe he just didn't want to deal with it or didn't understand how of questionable it is to grant such a distinction hanging only on the metaphysical thesis and the ambiguous claim of mind independents that doesn't seem to mean anything again it's like it to like I don't I don't know exactly what you're saying here about like what friended z' position is but it's just it just comes down to the sense you're using the term man if you're using it on to logically I'm a subjectivist if you're using it histologically I'm an Objectivist it's really not hard to get okay so ask yourself can complain that he has only ever defined moral objectivism as robust realism robust realism is like pretty close to what I mean so that's like I'm like happy enough with that definition and yeah I only ever use the term to refer really to - yeah it's like ontology but that's not helping his case that he's a subjectivist only a few again only a few import a whole bunch into the definition of subjectivist I'm just referring to the contrast between how you think morality exists the nature of the thing okay and given his broad misunderstanding of these concepts if I can provide evidence retard it doesn't really convince me he's even that he's not a robust realist I don't care if he is refusing well again it depends how you define robust realism but if you're talking about the belief that morality exists independent of a subject no it doesn't ok so there's some pretty hefty decimation of fucking moron I guess I'll see what the chat saying this is probably lagging behind a little bit so I might just close it here and pop back to the original live stream and restore chat just see what people are saying unless it's too slow you're gonna be too slow your computer I don't know he resorted to ad homes that guy I think is probably talking about the other person about Phil oh I don't know this looks like they're just fucking all over the place so I mean I'm just gonna go on to the next the next thing which is his cringy fucking weird attempt to remake name the trait okay so here we have a grotesque Frankenstein of an argument just a gimp tout deformity I mean would anyone ever try to deploy this in an argument are like are you fucking kidding me okay so let's just rip through this point by point and then I'm done or no I'll tell maybe I'll take a few questions after okay so argument for animal moral value humans are of moral value and for the idiots out there that's not an ontological truth claim that's asking if you subjectively hold that position okay so he's inserted premise three arbitrary assertions of moral value are not acceptable moral value must just be justified by some relevant non arbitrary trait ie rejection of moral relativism no that doesn't have to be embedded beforehand just run arbitrary as a category or specific arbitrary traits through the argument and they'll produce contradictions with any rational thinking person who doesn't want to be discriminated against for arbitrary reasons p4 irrelevant trait is a trait that would cause us to deem ourselves valueless if we lacked it that's already really like articulated pretty fine in premise two where I say what the trait is which is a trait which absent animals which absent in us would cause us to deem ourselves valueless so it's just redundant and then this part about adding the Golden Rule know you don't have to assume the Golden Rule someone can reject it but if you you know if you reject it and then you try to argue through this argument you're gonna probably come out inconsistent hmm she's just saying I don't have to treat others as they treat me well I mean what if someone else says that to you you're probably gonna reject it so okay and then there's no trade absent in sentient non-human animals okay so now that is a valid thing that you can add in there but it's really not necessary so I'm not going to say that that's a logically incorrect thing to add or you know and it's pretty much just a needless thing to add because pretty much it's it's obvious when I use the word animals and humans in contrast to each other what the fuck I'm referring to so when you craft an argument or when you write an essay or when you talk there's always a question of how how unnecessarily complicated do I want this to become and for me I opted to keep things as simple as possible so people can understand them minimize the amount of words and judging by this monstrosity of an argument fillo does not comprehend this concept hmm so I mean for example like with with premise 2 I could say there's no trait or set of traits present or absent in animals or the context in which they exist which if present or absent in humans or the context in which they exist right so there's always levels of extra clarity that you can add it's not it's not that somehow I think that my argument applies to in sentient animals it's just that I am keeping the words contained and easy to understand okay and then premise five and attempted defense of personal interest as an indication of self value now that's true but you don't have to write that as a premise if someone denies human moral value you just run it through the trait through the argument you don't have moral value so it's okay for me to kill you if they don't accept it it's a contradiction if they do then they're consistent but their position is pretty absurd and then rejection of subjectivism through objective behavioral indications of value I mean we don't we don't need to get it like again it depends on how you're using the term subjectivism but the the overall notion that you have to include that as premise that's just it's not necessary if someone tries to say humans aren't of moral value or animals aren't of moral value you just plug it through the argument just like you would with arbitrary arbitrary though and then conclusion therefore without establishing the absence of such trait and animals we contradict ourselves by deeming animals valueless and he writes non-human animals are of some moral value not necessarily equal to humans so again just stating a fucking obvious fact that I am more than aware of I mean this guy's just an idiot he's hasn't done any fucking research into my positions so let's see here like I literally sorry it's just frozen it'll just take a second to catch up it's because of OBS I better check the stream health actually just make sure we're good ok nice ok so let's see huh yeah my friends is a making fun of Phil oh there ok so just like look at my fucking photos I mean I've literally like I've explained this ad nauseam this guy doesn't know what my views are so he's just a fuckin idiot so like I've literally made memes of the sentience hierarchy as perceived by different people so I'm not sure why this retard is assuming like why he would add in a correction that it tells us that animals are of value but not as much as humans I mean I'm sorry I'm just waiting for this to load up it's slow oh my god okay well maybe you have to just come back to that one oh ah there we go okay so it's a little blurry it'll come into focus but so like there's the hierarchy of moral value for carnist it's obviously totally inconsistent and insane you got like dogs out here that pigs down there and like plants have a dotted line where they sometimes have moral value when talking to vegans but I mean if you hop over to rational vegans again more than aware of the sentience hierarchy it's not like I don't know why you put that correction in you're just an idiot I've also got one for all life is equal vegans which is kind of funny so again just retarded doesn't need to be included in the argument don't know why you're saying it okay let's find our way back to that cancer I'm running out of energy so it's gonna be good close up hmm okay so argument for veganism from animal moral value sentient animals are of moral value oh wait well what the fuck why didn't you write sentient non-human animals I mean where's the where's the clarity Phil oh I mean clearly your argument needs to be corrected it's not obvious what you're referring to and then he's scratched out that literally the whole two other parts of the argument so I mean for anyone who's like not understanding what this aspect of the argument is right here I mean once you acknowledge animals have moral value you acknowledge humans have moral value then you're committed to the same standard of treatment obviously and unless the only areas where you can diverge in your treatment while remaining logically consistent are areas where you can actually name a trait which if true of the humans would justify changing the treatment for the humans so if you're talking about like religious freedom animals can't have religion they don't need a right to religious freedom and neither do severely disabled humans if you're talking about a right to vote there's the same thing so I mean this is just once you acknowledge moral value you just have to be consistent in your application of moral value and if in the human context moral value means not engaging in needless exploitation then it means the same thing in the animal context unless you can differentiate them from humans in a way which if true of humans would cause respecting their moral value to me and something else so I don't think he understands that part of the argument so now let's go through all this ridiculous shit he's added here so P 2 current animal agriculture practices are harmful to their moral interests obviously a true statement but how is that relevant how do need that to point out a contradiction mp3 current animal agriculture practices are also harmful to human moral interests environmental harm which harms humans to resource waste in developed countries zoonotic plague source antibiotic resistant bacteria so I mean just look at how far all over the place this guy's going it's like he didn't even understand the point of the argument Phil Oh name the trait is just a contradiction exposing tool it's a consistency test that's what it is this shit that you're embedding here this is all beside the point you don't need any of this to demonstrate a contradiction how is acknowledging that agriculture practices hurt humans or hurt animals necessary to point out that simultaneously appealing to and rejecting the same justification is not consistent and then P for benefits from current animal agriculture practice are small enough small and limited to a sorry I'm a little spaced out here benefits from current animal AG practices are are small and limited to avoiding are are okay he did make an error I thought I was making the error to avoiding short-term inconveniences in the developed world again how is that necessary to point out contradictions it's not so what he's doing here I mean it's like some kind of grotesque experiment where he is like stitched his whole worldview into mine like a Siamese twin or something so it's just just fucking retarded um-hmm okay so then p5 the morality of actions is dependent on the consequence of those actions in terms of the moral harms and benefits that result ie consequentialism so again it's like he he he doesn't like deontological vegans and with deontology and consequentialism I basically would say that the validity of that mutual exclusion I don't necessarily call it a dichotomy because there are maybe other things that you could argue are there like if you want to say that virtue ethics or something makes it a tetra kata me or that there's more options but you know people argue that the ontology and consequentialism are mutually exclusive so that mutual exclusivity depends on a sufficiently narrow definition of deontology uh so when you say if you're gonna use like narrow deontological rules if you're gonna say punching is wrong or something like this then that's going to be in absolute mutual exclusivity to consequentialism and consequentialism i'm obviously talk there's multiple forms of it but I'm talking about consequentialism form where you're concerned with the consequences in terms of maximizing well-being reducing suffering so that is certainly mutually exclusive to narrow deontology where you're gonna say like punching is wrong or like you know raping is wrong or something like this because you can create a hypothetical where the you can see that they point to different answers basically so let's say that you've got a situation where the positive consequences of punching someone vastly outweigh the negative so the consequentialist is going to say yeah the punching is moral in that context the narrow deontologist is going to say well no it violates the rule that punching is immoral and obviously narrow deontology leads to ridiculous absurdities like if you're gonna say punching is moral or respect or 'l irrespective of context then i mean we can just make a hypothetical where the gap between the well being that would be generated by punching someone and not punching them is just so huge that you'd seem insane so you have a choice of punching someone or the earth explodes the narrow deontologists would have to say you don't punch it breaks the rules but anyone with a fucking brain would say you punch okay you don't want the earth to explode and deontology still fails if you're taking even like broader better rules so something like the non-aggression principle and I'll just say right here I'm not I'm not ripping on the and caps and libertarians like I do think that the non-aggression principle is a good rule but even great rules if you try to hold them in this kind of narrow deontological sense they're going to break down into absurdities so you can still be a you know an Cavor libertarian or whatever it is and believe in the non-aggression principle but understand that it's going to break down if the pragmatic reality gets bad enough so I mean if you deontological 'i held the non-aggression principle if you have a choice of either it's an eternal Holocaust forever or you have to aggress against a person who's not aggressing against you in a narrow deontological sense you would have to say well you don't aggress you don't violate the principle you hold to the rule and I think it's very obvious that that's a absurd decision to make and a decision that no thinking caring rational person would want to make but we're deontology and consequentialism are not mutually exclusive is when you take a sufficiently broad definition of the ontology with a broad enough def like the ontology is rural based ethics right so if you really just are talking about that concept as broadly as possible well that encompasses consequentialism consequentialism is still based on a rule of maximizing well-being and reducing suffering it's just a broader more algorithmic kind of rule that can generate different answers for the same action it's not like an action specific rule like punching is always wrong so the mutual exclusivity between deontology and consequentialism actually depends on the narrowness of your definition of deontology narrow deontology is in stark opposition to consequentialism broad deontology actually includes consequentialism because consequentialism is based on a rule a broader more algorithmic rule that you should maximize well-being reduce suffering so I'm gonna go back to his thing here so when he says you have to import consequentialism I don't like to import the whole of consequentialism I like to make an argument that's just based on the most simple principle I can think of which is just a contradiction so you want to be treated a certain way and you're gonna be contradicting yourself if you advocate treating others in a different way when you can't differentiate them from you in a meaningful way a meaningful way being of course a way that if true of you would cause you to accept the treatment so we don't we don't have to get into ethical frameworks to make that point that's gonna be a contradiction regardless of what ethical framework you believe in unless you believe in an ethical framework that rejects logic or if you're ok with the treatment happening to yourself so again it's like and there are a lot of people who think deontological II so why not make an argument that's gonna work regardless of which frame you hold instead of importing this it's kind of similar to importing intersectionality and I'm not comparing them consequentialism is a vastly more reasonable position than intersectionality but it's like why add all of this shit that you've got here and make this argument so specific to a certain type of person based on something simple like a contradiction and the basic standard of treatment you accept or expect for yourself don't import your whole philosophy and tell people that they have to get on board with it to be a vegan what the fuck okay so premise six morality is others directed not selfish what so now we're just gonna say that all the people who hold like any kind of personal morality a you know non ultra-stick morality can't be vegan so what the fuck are you talking about it's still going to be contradictory if you say you know from my personal angle it benefits me to exploit animals okay well from my personal angle it benefits me to exploit you I mean do you accept that logic no so it still produces a contradiction so you don't have to make an assertion about the fucking nature of morality like that it's again you're just importing your whole worldview into this argument okay and then personal pleasure is not a moral justification for causing harm to others again you don't you don't have to import that you just run that through name the trade it's my personal pleasure okay well do you accept being discriminated against because it's my personal pleasure know so you can't deploy it without producing a contradiction um and then seven I mean we're talking fucking eight premises is what we're talking about here counting this this other what five it's like what thirteen premises absurd ridiculous okay so P seven in the developed world purchasing and supporting the production a little quick livestream check I just do this because my health is bad guys patreon and I'll get better internet okay so let's just go back to also huge thanks to everyone who supports me on patreon it jumped up to like fucking nine hundred bucks I don't know if it'll stay there right now cuz it's contingent on some fairly large patrons who showed up recently who I don't know if they'll stick around obviously it's more stable when you have a ton of little patrons but still I just hugely appreciate all you guys you obviously know that but one thing that I am gonna do once I hit the thousand mark I will be investing in better internet so it's just worth mentioning that okay for those of you who bitch about my stream quality I'm also gonna get a camera for those of you who love to look at my beautiful face okay so where are we at now in the developed world purchasing and sporting the production of most animal products is a net negative consequence for others yeah I mean that's of course true but you don't have to import that to point out that it's a contradiction to simultaneously accept and reject the same justification for murder and then nobody is perfect but a good person is the kind of person who aspires to do better and works on becoming a better person day by day so again this is just this guy's argument for veganism which he has just imported into my argument that's not necessary to point out a contradiction I don't know why you put it there mm-hmm okay and then conclusion therefore if you are a moral person it is moral imperative to work on moving away from consuming most animal products and towards plant-based staples with the ultimate goal of going vegan or Ostrow vegan okay well first of all just with respect to the name the trait argument that's not necessary to point out a contradiction and I don't know why you put it there I mean the conclusion is is supposed to be that you're contradicting yourself if you're discriminating against a creature on the basis of a justification that you wouldn't use or you wouldn't accept those used to discriminate against you so you've you've taken it instead as its supposed to conclude and in veganism which it only concludes in veganism if you accept logical consistency and that humans are of moral value I mean you can reach consistent positions that aren't veganism through name the traits so anyway ultimate goal of going vegan or Ostrow vegan Ostrow vegan I think that's like bivalve vegan and I mean my opinion on that is really just limited by my lack of knowledge of like anatomy and stuff like this so I don't know if they are completely in sentient so I err on the side of caution Ostrow veganism could be a completely consistent position I just don't personally have the data to evaluate that and then if you're a moral person the moral imperative is to work on moving away um well know that I mean it's do you accept that in me working on moving away from raping people I mean no so it's not it's gonna be contradictory to say that you're supposed to work on it I mean you need to actually go vegan if you want to remain consistent and if you assume humans have moral value and you accept logic hmm okay so then he's got some bullshit in the bottom the first half of the argument was a non sequitur no it's not provide evidence if you're saying that a creature has moral value and you can't differentiate another creature from it in a meaningful way then you're contradicting yourself by suggesting that that creature does not deserve moral value just like if I say I can lift brick a there's nothing true of herbs you say I can't lift brick a and then you say there's nothing true of brick B which if true of brick a would make me capable of lifting brick a well then you would certainly be contradicting yourself if you're saying that you can lift one and you can't lift the other but you can't actually spell out the difference that makes it possible to do this well it's a contradiction because if there were such a difference you just apply it to brick a and then you'd be able to lift brick a so it's not a non sequitur I mean it's just completely obvious if you understand that a creatures of moral value and you can't differentiate another creature from that creature in a way which if true of the first would cause them to lose their moral value then you have to assume the second has moral value as well so let's also just look here so the argument was a non sector on its own no it wasn't but it's easy to correct by adding the needed or miss missing or hidden premises ok so again all of these premises down here they have nothing to do with pointing out that a contradiction how to point out a contradiction they're just beside the point that's your argument for veganism it's not mine you've stitched it in like a grotesque deformity and then up here these premises arbitrary no you can reach that through name the trait this here no that's encompassed in number two self value no you don't need to assume that as someone tries to deny moral value you just run it through and point out the consequences you don't need to assume any of those things the rest of the argument must be replaced completely I'm sure that you like to think that because I know that what drives you really on a psychological level is you need to feel that you are intellectually superior you need to feel that no one could have come up with a good solid stable fucking awesome argument for veganism that everyone likes and that's making its rounds without any help from you and that there's no way that you could help and improve it I know you want to feel like the fucking philosophical master bud but you fail okay so there's no need to add any of that shit in I would love to I mean if it's not a effective argument against carnism I would fucking love to see this guy attempt to argue carnism against name the trade he'd get fucking smashed okay so what else does he go out there the rest of the argument must be replaced completely because it was based on illogical provide evidence absolutist no I don't hold principles absolutely deontological depends on the breadth of your definition the ontology and an empirical argument is necessary for situations where harms and benefits must be weighed so that's a hardcore consequentialist and he obviously thinks you have to apply to appeal to some kind of empirical reality of suffering and well-being an argue that overall the most superior consequences come from veganism that's one way to argue another is just to point out that you're contradicting yourself if you're going to discriminate against animals based on a justification that you would not accept if used to discriminate against you okay so I think that that is a very thorough Merkin I don't usually say this but if you want to kind of shove it in the face of this pretentious twat then make sure to leave a like on this video and I'll just see what you guys are saying if you want a chat or anything Kuo 20-buck chat right there I'll read that one off for sure let me just pop out the live chat and I'm gonna go in like five minutes I'm getting worn out here hmm I hope you guys enjoyed that thorough Merkin Thunder Bay personal trainer you know I was gonna block him the second I saw my name but I think he at least understands that name the traits of correct argument so I'll let it go that time okay so do you guys have any questions you want to ask just you know you can feel free to ask them I'm gonna just go try to locate that fucking super chat wherever it is shit it's gone I might need to go to my live dashboard one from Darren here okay so hmm by the way Phil oh you're cringy post on twitter that was liked by a few people Darren was one of those and that's a sarcastic like so epic stream broke now shut up and take my money never shut up actually veganism needs your voice for guidance I have a question though could you say that sentient brains are ontologically object of moral objects well I mean sure like the brain the actual brain itself certainly exists in an ontological objective sense its physical matter and then I already dealt with that other live chat okay so um do you guys have any any questions you want to ask or are we done to here okay hmm Isaac or ask yourself can how can you best attack the pro-life coma argument I'm not sure what exactly you perceive that argument to be but the difference there is obviously that one being hasn't come into existence one has already come into existence and acquired rights ask yourself best way to respond to morality is relative though um well I mean in a sense it is relative but you just point out that when it comes to constructing a moral system you don't want to build it based on that unless you'd accept the argument Oh relative though I'm gonna stab you to death ask yourself can you call the atheists I know you guys want me to do this you've been asking for so long I'll think about it kay I'll think about calling it I doubt they'll talk to me spooky skeleton asks do you think it could be vegan to purchase wild-caught invasive species that are actively pushing out native species to the detriment of biodiversity um the way that you describe it there is not enough to convince me if if you're going to make the situation so consequentially bad that you actually have to kill animals then I'm gonna say that in that context eating the animal products is not a bad thing I mean you can make situations that are consequentially bad enough that you'd support killing a human and it wouldn't necessarily be morally wrong to eat their remains once they're dead if it's not going to affect anyone negatively psychologically um ask yourself do you want to go out and share a fruit smoothie with me oh that's Logan Blake okay so Logan I'm just gonna be straight up with you man you have put out some really clickbait II really ridiculous content about me and I like I mean honestly dude I think frankly you owe me an apology I'm sure I'll never get it but I don't really have much interest in interacting with you until I get it and I think that you know whatever no I don't want to get into that okay so any any other questions there actually one more thing I'll say about Logan Blake um dude like when you comment on a video of me not letting someone speak and cutting them off do you think that they were if they were talking on point that I would be sitting there cutting them off I mean I I don't know if you're well versed in fucking philosophy or meta ethics or any of this stuff but unless you're highly competent with this kind of information then please don't assume that I'm just being a dick by cutting them off okay you might not be able to comprehend that I actually am cutting them off because they are going off point and I consistently noticed this like the smarter people like Richard or fucking Martin or anyone who I know who I consider like really like you know intellectually on point they always understand why I'm cutting people off so I mean yeah am i single it's fucking weird that you guys always ask me this shit I am currently but don't fucking don't even think about it I don't even know who you are thanks man I love you I mean I don't I don't know what your deal is I I don't have that big a problem with you but you do owe me an apology um grace T ask yourself do you think he's only coming after you to be the alpha vegan philosopher personally I do I can't demonstrate that but I think it's clear um I also like I can smash him again on live stream but I'm not gonna let him go off point so I mean if you guys really want it like he'll respond to this video I'm sure cuz he's like pathologically driven to assert himself as the philosophical master okay well now now I actually I'm gonna block Logan because you guys can go watch that video if you want but I don't like people promoting fucking content against me in my own fucking chats so bye-bye Logan okay so no I can't I can't demonstrate that he thinks he is some kind of like alpha philosopher that's where I think he's coming from and I'll smash him on livestream if you want me to but I think that what what I'll do is on my next video he'll respond to this and I'll post basically a link to his response so you guys can read it and I'll just let you guys vote on if you want me to just Massacre him again in another video response if you want me to have them on and destroy him in the debate or if like the stuff with eyes'll you all just fucking get it you know he's not making sense he don't it's not entertaining and you don't want to waste any more time watch this shit so I'll let you guys vote in the future how old am i 24 25 on November 2nd foot soldier says is t-shirts though a good enough justification for stabbing someone to death still unsure on that one I'm assuming you mean like t-shirts produced in some other area of the earth no obviously it's not people are working the best jobs that they have access to some factory job in Indonesia might seem unappealing to you but it's probably the best they can do and if they had better accessible to them they would be doing it so I mean to suggest that it's ethical to deprive low-wage workers of money by not buying from the poorest of the poor and buying from like I don't know what you might want to suggest maybe Fairtrade companies that are basically well you know only certain companies that actually have money can afford to pass the Fairtrade regulations it's not coming from the poorest of the poor areas in the world and it's really lining the pockets of Western businesses I mean if that's the kind of thing you're saying no that's not ethical and there's no well I don't want it's not ethical it's not necessarily ethically superior and it's definitely not a justification for murder to say t-shirts though and most importantly what why would it be considered ethical to deprive a low-wage worker of the best job they have access to hmm okay so let's see what else Claudio says this is kind of funny my group though green crabs though bacon though well my group though Phil oh actually seems to think that's a valid justification according to you know his comments about friended or at least that's not a contradiction even if you reject being discriminated against because you're not part of someone else groups very confusing okay so Claudio man says ask yourself okay and guys I'm gonna cut this off in I'm gonna cut it at what's that 820 so that'll be three minutes what would you respond to someone that says I accept being killed by aliens though um okay well I would firstly just point out that there's I would honestly point out that I think they're lying someone asked that yesterday on the stream with vegan gains um there's no way that you actually just want to be killed by aliens and if you say you do then you it's just like if you say you're okay like destiny massacring indigenous tribes you can be consistent and oppose veganism you just have to accept absurdities and if you say I'm okay getting fucking killed then most people are not going to be on your side they might still be Karnas but they're not going to agree with that line of reasoning name the trade t-shirts and numbers tickets oh yeah I'm gonna do a t-shirt contest and let people design and name the trade shirt I think that's a good idea because people keep asking for a fucking name the trade shirt oh my god I have to show you guys this - I'll put it in a video but the one of my patrons did a fucking he's like power lifter there's a video I'll let that load up while I read some our questions of him I think it's called dead lifting I guess I don't know I'm not fucking Jim Brad here but he is dead lifting like five hundred or something and he's uh wearing a name the trade shirt so it's pretty it's pretty fucking awesome he created his girlfriend created the shirt or something just let me get this back to my main page okay so we find the conversation or the trap okay I think I've missed a lot of them there I don't know if I can get all those great t-shirts you think ontological moral objectivism is tenable no no I mean it's it's clearly not how does point to where morality exists if not in the subjective experience Justin viola says do you plan on doing some cooking videos in the near future when you've reached your next patreon goal um I'm not gonna say it's dependent on my next patreon goal but you can believe it is if that'll make you donate just kidding um and I would say yes I actually that I do have a plan for this I have some friends my buddy Alex my buddy Josh and these guys are whizzes when it comes to cooking so I'm going to actually film I'm gonna create a playlist on my channel where I'm going to film recipes basically and they'll be cooking and I'll do there will be healthy ones there'll be disgusting ones just a whole range of cool vegan recipes and I'll do that all when I get a okay wait that actually is contingent a bit on patreon stuff because I don't want to do that shit with the iPhone camera so that will be when I actually get a good camera um okay so let's see if that video has look Oh what the fuck is up here okay so I'll show you this this deadlift video it's pretty great it's all slow because of the stream which I think is still in good health yes it's still in good health okay all right this is when you said t-shirts though it reminded me a bit of this and and named the trade t-shirt reminded me of this so this is one of my patrons David just fucking destroying it [Music] got a lot better [Music] [Music] [Music] EPIK right so I forget how much weight that is I think I think he said it was like 2:30 or 260 or something and that's in kilogram so it's like I pretty sure it's over 500 in pounds okay guys my times up but fuck I'll read like a few more whatever okay so cooking videos yes have you watched don't eat anything with a face yeah it's a classic debate that's a good one debate fillo live I'll see what the audience thinks but I like I don't want to just bore the fuck out of my audience so we'll see but I can smash him again I'll give you guys the option to actually vote on it as a group what's your opinion on freeganism it depends how you define it but if you're talking about like just things that are already going in the fucking garbage and that there's there's it doesn't like contribute to animal suffering at all to eat it and no one's gonna be seeing you eating it therefore sending the wrong message I mean in those kind of situations I don't see what's what's wrong with it it's not actually contributing to the Holocaust age of age why do you keep getting friended so much of your time he seems to be incredibly annoying and belligerent in streams people say that about me but you know does he behave similarly impersonal no he's usually pretty friendly with me in private chats he just doesn't get things okay what do you think about unnatural vegan um I mean I'm not deeply versed on Swayze's views I know she promotes the philosophical vegan forum and this guy is the fucking admin on there so that makes me a little skeptical but I'm not making any judgments about Swasey and I mean you know she seems she seems like smart enough she seems like she's like makes stable arguments corey mccarthy and i are actually responding to privileged vegans response to her and we're gonna fucking decimate her video okay so what do we have here when i read about cases in nature of our case selection altruism it becomes questionable to me whether humans should respect organisms with no institutions in place that restrict their behavior I mean you should respect humans unless there's a good reason not to like they're actually trying to fuck with you fillo wants your intellectual nuts yeah I'd already just nut it all over them ask yourself notice me senpai all right I think that's it for me guys it was nice talking to all of you I'll be back with that rationale Gator video very soon and I hope that you all have a great day much love go vegan bye bye
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NonZeroSum
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Re: Transcripts for sourcing.

Post by NonZeroSum »

Vegan Gains & Ask Yourself vs. Andy Warski & Chris Warski

hey have you started my livestream perfect do you live as long legs cool it's going on everyone welcome to another war ski live I'm here of course winters war ski what's up and we got vegan gains going on men's up and ask yourself what's up you you are you doing so I ready for this fucking battle that the just throw down just screaming match you know it man yes London's that someone will die tonight so I mean vault agreed on it though is someone will die tonight yeah I got this new mic just so I can yell over you with clarity oh wait you know did you watch my video you obviously watched my video on on the roaming millennia debate right I point out a counter video man corrected a few things okay I'll check it I'll check it out but uh yeah did you buy a new mic because I called you friend with shitty mic no no wasn't it you don't have that kind of power over my life thank you for a while alright cool I'm just soaking though by that I did not rip you back for your video being too quiet though yeah you got I did way so yeah I fucked up I fucked up that's good I think they should be good chirping I wish people would be able to take chirping as well as well as dish it out but yeah like when you like being James when you called me a fucking moron it was really like my last day and I wore ski is fucking moron yeah I brought the baton like like I was to lay back on me angry and I agree whatever yeah yeah yeah I was like yeah mix point on many things on that but yeah so we don't have a moderator today on you were supposed to have someone in but physically kinda I'll be like like nothing around but we end up talking and saying if we can do this without yelling over each other and finishing each others like sentences basically it's all good like yeah and we also just established some agreement that if we nip in on each other we're just going to you know kind of try to listen instead of insisting on a you know going on and on yeah yes like if I'm saying something and you guys think that I'm just totally off point than just you know if you really need to snip in just just do it I will listen we can all maybe extend each other that courtesy I hope for sure did peep sight not hearing me I think I want to feel like you guys are holding back something and you're waiting to say yeah we just have very comfortable knowledge that there's no good reason to stab something so we're pretty ready to talk about it well how about a murder you yeah I'm not down with that either but I don't know how I'm saying it someone's trying to murder you then you can stab them right yeah I mean I'm not a pacifist you think we need a kiln Odyssey yeah well okay let's start there because the one thing I want to get right off the bat is the the nutritional aspect which I think the doorman didn't really go with here the nutritional aspect I am 100% on board that's right people if you're going to be shocked whatever it is very difficult to argue the nutritional aspect of vegetables I will never argue against every time I had heard not only trying to debate that point it's it just it's just like destruction like why are you trying like like you were saying a vegan to save return to roaming where she's turn out like I think salmon or or steaks and you're talking about like the cholesterol level for it and then she's saying and then each time out like the protein and you're like you can have that out of lentils therefore the cholesterol is bullshit why would you ingest that and I'm like he's right like there's no point in going over that I mean okay I have one question for you then I was a begin for like six months and I tried doing it as best as possible and I took the b12 and all the supplements and all this stuff and suddenly a few months in my like fucking hair started falling out when I was washing my hair then I researched this online and a few people on some forums had the exact same reaction or whatever happened so I got freaked out and started eating a eggs and meat again and then within a few weeks my hair was fine a digit revolutions helped you with that yeah you did not he debated me a few years ago and fucking destroyed me so then that night I became a deacon for like five months in the house so what where where did he go wrong yeah all the hair falling out they are following it well that's usually just a symptom of undereating in general were you tracking your calories pretty accurately yeah I used my fitness pal and I was I I was eating out I was still living with this guy and you saw how much I was eating I literally ingested as much food as possible because I was also working out hard during that time and I like look I'll tell you one thing I'll do one thing for people who are wondering I felt like for the first few months I felt great maybe I started fucking slipping somewhere and then that's why it started happening maybe I was or I was working out too hard and not eating enough to make up for how hard I was working out right I got fucking terrified I'm like look I'm all in with the animal ethics thing that's what originally put me into it but like if I'm going to have to be dealing with my hair falling out and feeling like weakened and all this stuff like it is it worth it was my sort of right unlike my were you following any specific kind of like raw vegan diet mostly or like righto for sort of thing uh no well I was doing let's see for like protein was like you know lentils and beans and all that and I was taking a vegan protein supplement as well as well as some bars and stuff eating a shit ton of vegetables a lot of oatmeal and the more it wasn't like Ross specifically like probably raw diet okay no and I'd probably um I've heard a few people complain about this but then once they up their fat intake they were perfectly fine I've seen a few vegans follow like a really low fat diet like ten percent or less of calories coming from fat and then once they just up their cat their fat intake to like 20 or 30 percent they they were getting really dry wrinkly skin then their skin smoothed out and their hair like got thicker and wasn't falling out and stuff so I think if anything it's either you weren't eating enough calories from fat or just calories total where do you get the fat because this is all from the meat and a cholesterol that we adjust where are you getting that from like avocados coconuts I like nuts seeds I generally recommend avoiding oils but you know if it if it's between not getting enough fat intake and eating a little bit of oil like frying some plantains and coconut oil then I'd say have a bit of oil but uh yeah nuts and seeds like just get a bunch of hemp seed sprinkle it on your oatmeal you get a lot of good fats yeah see see I legitimately tried my fucking best and I like I was think about it for like a month and I'm like this is just too much for me like I'm just not having I felt like here's the problem I felt like my entire day was constantly thinking about okay what do I eat now in this and oh shit now I'm hungry and I was shitting like fucking five times a day I was like okay because I just like flow right through me and it's all the fiber and all that stuff too and it just seemed so inconvenient and so hard to maintain especially one of those I got work and stuff I'm like I would have to keep like food in my fucking my pockets just to eat and not feel like I'm dying it was mr. Craig yeah who keeps joining this calm oh no did I know double check yeah I'm like good know that I fucking know just tweet it out weed out the rags so Andy you are not will actually Christy I guess but yeah and because you tried going vegan you're not actually of the opinion that you can't be healthy on a vegan diet you just think that you had a hard time I just think it's like especially about how busy I am now about my two favorites going on thank you very much for $5 um I found that it was like I was way more stressed out about everything by like having to shop and like figure out absolutely everything I had to do my time we started running out I was constantly hungry and I found I was really like yo like either this milk powder in it I wouldn't touch it so I'd be like you know parties or out was friends and this and that and I'm like starving wrong out there and everyone's eating pizza and chips or whatever and I'm just like I'm gonna fuckin dwindle I keep doing this I found that the convenience factor was probably the biggest biggest fuckin obstacle to just maintain and also like I was eating like I think nine meals a day constantly and it I still didn't feel full okay just sorry just to throw that back before you get back to the health but are you of the opinion that you can't be healthy on a vegan diet or you you know that you can I sorry yeah yeah you can be healthy and you personally you personally and II Warsi could be hopeless oh me personally I I think for the first few months I was doing good job and I felt okay I felt very good and but I I don't know I I don't know cuz I didn't keep doing it maybe if I had had Richards advice or whatever and I did what he's saying maybe it would have worked out better but like again be the convenience factor was so rough and I'm spending 60 percent of my time thinking about food and eating foods and shitting yeah well I don't I don't speak for Richard but I mean I wouldn't be surprised if he would be willing to help you plan an easy manageable vegan diet if you're wanting to move in that direction c CP years he's where he's one of my aspects or my my idea and where we could start like debating the the animal cruelty aspect and because i'm believe me i got enough pictures of dead animals and murdered you know like abused animals and that's engraved in my brain and I was very Pro like holy shit this is horrible why do we do this and the the amount of work just to become vegan and like this the first month was rough and then I liked it and then I hated it and then I quit it and I I'm not sure if like I don't understand how I would even begin to even go into that direction anymore and I found the convenience of just eating a steak and getting everything like absolutely in one shot if it's sort of overrides my feelings on animals dying right so you're saying you are sympathetic to you know the animal agriculture industry and the cruelty but not to the extent where you'd be able to sacrifice like a huge amount of convenience from your life yes yeah that's my kinda tested me on this to just like uh if you put a cow in front of me and if I wasn't a farmer or doing it that way and you just had to fucking kill it or if I worked at a slaughterhouse I would be yeah I would have I would emphasize with that I'm like yeah it would be very very difficult and it would pay a toll on my psychological well-being it does for people who work in slaughterhouses I already know that now the part is I separate myself from that I can empathize but I am forced to separate myself on that because I am a meat-eater it is out of necessity because again you put anyone just in front of violence like that it's going to take a toll on you and and that's that that's the part I agree on so more so I'd be talking about is there in your guy's opinion and this is the touchy subject is there a humane way of doing it that you guys you see viable for meat-eaters or are you guys just like no do you want me to go first well um the thing is I think the most accurate figure is a fifty six billion animals per year are being slaughtered and that's not actually including fish or any oceanic life because it's measured in pounds and with that considered you're talking about numbers and the trillions of animals that are killed like is there a way to murder several trillions of animals each year humanely and then when you look at it in that sort of context especially like there's the sheer quantity of animals no like you can't do it humanely and if you're going to make the argument okay well we're show me fill a few who the fuck is that must have given out this okay yes okay like if you're going to if you're going to make the argument okay we should only kill a few million animals ah oh Jesus fucking piece of shit yeah actually thinking boys must have shared the link yeah how do these people have the link that's your plan you're like we won't know how cancer the point so we're going to give a yeah it's a little put a black box over the URL put put a box over the URL can't find it ease there we go it's close it 500 is that what's happening Richard is the URL visible on your live stream oh shit I think so you alright yeah it is bitterly fuck this people got screenshot of it now they're going to keep yo yo you guys you guys want to reboot with the fresh thing because that's probably gonna keep happening yeah I guess that's going to be a fuckin must on this right okay there's a side where the vegan team truly did fuck up you know and I did you want to repeat as I as J to think of it for the $10 and whether think the five bucks we're going to redo this and hopefully some vegans be careful this up now I'm just kidding man alright once again okay alright so I will God down just sign off set it up again and Richard will shoot me the link okay cool oh don't worry we're enjoy yeah cool P okay bye alright uh sorry about that everyone yeah the link was visible on my screen I guess I'll just answer any comments somebody donated two euros in the super chant Sammy Khan thank you very much for your donation Andy you my nigga alright well don't know why I'm not your nigga they're just going to link me the new hangout over on Twitter so just wait a second for some reason I can't bring my webcam up I don't know why all right what's up uh not much so you found the link from my strobe unit sure okay what oh shit it's all got its laggy okay it's like behind the baby's back a yard okay I hope you on the walls making again oh they didn't set up a new one just reading through some of the comments here is the debate still on yeah they're just setting up a new hangout because everyone could see the link on my stream it's not magnifying the photo when I speak because that's like I'm in the Hangout okay there's my webcam I don't know why it didn't bother to show before hello everyone are you kidding just donated five dollars thank you very much guys and I actually did an advertisement for are you kidding on my roaming millennial video so check out are you kidding YouTube channels they're really funny dudes I actually really like their skits or their you know public pranks they're really funny so check out are you kidding YouTube channel ok I just got the new link haha how you doing bud there we go there alright make sure we don't give the link cap yes yet okay rags rags did at the other time oh yeah it's over - Isaac out well I would live by the way never let you know we're less yeah it's cool cool you think a seafarers like bus without some racial slurs out of nowhere we're like Jojo I got on man hang on reset the stream we got to delete it now yeah alright yeah uh thank you very much for donating in my super chat lizanne Lee Jones thank you for the donation I'm not going to be able to read the super chat while the debates going on just to warn Loggins can you guys hear me yeah we can we're live but yeah let us know okay I didn't even know yeah yes sir I'm going to update two people I was while watching the super chat and this one is going to be very difficult to keep up with like Richard said while we're done ah yeah because we're going to be debating back and forth and keep interrupting do you want it all like a what happen kind really what I'm looking I'm looking at Richards stream of you are you it's because you're using OBS it's probably coming up on me it's probably visible on your screen no whatever all just rejecting people alright Chris is Dave mom I made sure it's not okay I'm gonna judge them don't worry don't worry it is not that somehow we're still using the same URL is it yeah imagine like well Andy is all Ron I'm just going to make sure that I didn't tweet out like this I know you're good I was good that's good I made sure that a thing is invisible on my own oh yeah totally Allah it's all right I'll just boot people fuck out all right all right let's hope it doesn't get overrun yeah that sounds good sounds good on be horde of retards or something yeah really talking when we left I was officer I believe it was Richard he was talking about the the at the Attucks and I want to throw in after him actually on the floor right so I was just talking about how like you're talking about trillions of animals that are being murdered each year and if you're going to end up arguing okay so we should kill less animals you're going to have to bring the kill count so goddamn low that practically the entire earth would be vegan and like at that point okay if we're only going to kill like maybe a few thousand or a few million animals each year is it humane - is there such thing as humane slaughter like can you think of a way to humanely kill an animal where you wouldn't feel guilty for killing it I think that would be the question like yeah where look can I just go in before I go back um yeah so I would just say I mean it wouldn't matter if it were one or if it were a trillion I mean if you're going to try to justify doing that to an animal it needs to be a justification that you would actually accept if it were applicable to you now I understand that in the debate may have some cancerous family that's that's that are part people I know I know I was Richard I saw some cancer in his comment section all I do um yeah I'm just saying like unless you can actually spell a justification that you would accept if it were applicable to you then you're creating a double standard and you've you seem to have misinterpreted us as saying that all life is equal or that killing a cow and killing a human is the same thing that's something that I've consistently opposed since the start of my channel as far as I know it's not a physician Richard holds either and it's like I mean you're talking about vegan revolution who I've got no problem with vegan revolution but who holds a profoundly different view years before you meters before you Silas oh my god and you like flat-out banned people so they can't return it hey I'm not sure you know what it's as fucking not she should have really put a lock on this like you know yeah locket yeah like that's come on that I mean really that's really bizarre you wouldn't be able to just put a lock that people can just find the link enjoyments really we uh yeah because I fucking more respect guys seriously okay wait do you maybe want to just retry yeah okay let's let's try this one more fucking time we'll wait we what what I mean people just keep joining we can find out how they're joining how is that possibly happening good as far as it started as a debate and now we're like teaming up to slice yes like us again haha yeah we'll know I destroy you motherfuckers I so no remorse to anyone yeah Richard can get a gun license now yes fucking right out here good exactly how much I okay you know I so far okay if it happens one more time was well one final reboot guess oh there we go yeah alright so okay so I'm gonna I'm gonna fucking guys one last time and I've also gone one last time all mostly dissolve on top of me I really want to call my youtube channel at mood apply the please please please allow me all right um I don't know how the hell people are figuring out it was bit angry how are people figuring out the link dude wow yeah this hello using days is it game so how did you figure out how to join you can games are my favorite youtuber okay so it's not gonna answer um well that's a shame um some other so we have time now see a run for sentient beings donated $20 thank you very much for donating she says looking forward to the debate thanks for inspiring me to go vegan god I'm looking forward to the debate - I don't know how they keep getting the link my webcam has a tendency to keep freezing Maurice also thank you very much donating $1 banana warrior princess thank you very much 2 euros Jason penny say I eat thick loads of meat ok well I did I did actually eat a three no four vegan hot dogs yesterday so I guess technically I do eat thick loads of meat Danny Joe - three - zero thank you very much for donating five dollars just checking the messages here I'm going to zoom in just a little bit on my thing here just so like Facebook message isn't shit aren't visible and I don't know how to hell anyone's getting the link to our debate give Volta 10 euros thank you very much sorry my webcam keeps freezing this is really fucked up sorry like this debate is getting delayed and everything I don't know how all these trolls are getting the link X Mar 5 thank you very much for donating $1 audrey Raymond again thank you very much donating $2 I really want to hear the debate - uh just waiting for them to send the link you okay all is weird um I'm gonna hide my monitor and then uh go into the chat and then hopefully no one can see the link Alfie thank you very much five dollar donation he's saying dude you showed the link before you made the window full screen sorry about the fences I didn't realize people could see it but yeah I'm going to just black out my monitor and then set it up I is never being an issue before so I didn't realise I guess you have to learn banana warrior princess five for another five hero donation thank you very much Felipe's salvo thank you very much for the $20 donation really appreciate it and Mel $3 thank you very much just waiting for them to send the next link sentient Sentinel thank you very much and again like just a warned everyone who's donating in the super chat I really really appreciate it but uh when the debate gets going again I can't respond to all the messages in a super chat okay here's the new hangout I'm going to pluck out the monitor and this should be fine now Spencer speaks by box thank you to five guys chuckles can you guys fuck up bullshit this okay whatever so cool okay alright alright this should be totally fine now I blacked out my monitor when I like riding on my webcam so Andale taught him a link to Isaac right now sorry about that nobody oh good I just haven't been a problem for me so yeah yeah now I know yeah I thought good dude no worries and he would just wait for ask yourself Jesus Christ comment section has never been as casual yeah here's the answer now yeah yes cancer has been cured I wish that social justice was that easy to deal with yeah okay okay so look I think that structure wise here look Richard I will probably both acknowledge that killing is at least potentially justifiable if it's necessary for help or like basically physically impossible to live without killing so I think we probably need to move through the nutrition stuff and get agreement that this is something that is doable and that is not a ridiculously massive undertaking and then once we're on the same page about that if we can get on the same page then it's appropriate to discuss ethics because if we if we don't cover that before ethics then you guys can keep falling back to that and saying well it's you know there's just no way to be healthy but I can say one thing I before the stream dropped out you said something along the lines of correct me if I'm wrong you said something along the lines of if you're going to like harm an animal like would you do it to yourself is that what like I don't know no not quite and and this there's two major misunderstandings in the video that you put out afterwards after the stream so one one of them is this I'm not okay wait I'll start with the easy one the easy one is we don't think that cows and humans are identical or have identical value I've never held that position that is the kind of position that someone like vegan revolution holds and there is a profound philosophical difference there between someone like him and someone like Richard or I so if you listen to our stream for example I'm not going to go on here but if you listen to our stream with VR you'll see I get in it with him on that topic for you know maybe it's like 20 minutes or something it was hard to deal with him he was a hard person to deal with he was just insane I mean I know Richard you come off across as insane and understand it so for entertainment purposes I mean maybe one other idea but hops yeah so so let's stay on standpoint for one sec here so that so that's that's one misunderstanding we don't view all life is equal we don't view killing a human and a cow is the same thing and then the other misunderstanding is you characterized my argument as is there's no difference between killing a human and a cow like you know how is that different and you know it's a lot more systemic and technical than that it's if you want to justify doing something to an animal that you wouldn't want done to yourself then you need to establish a difference present in that animal which if present in you would justify doing it to you otherwise you're saying this difference justifies mistreatment in one context but not the other okay well both to the one point on that and I'm standing over oversimplify and you tell me if it's completely different on the only talk on roaming extreme you said would you eat a human like if not then why would you eat an animal is that like a simplified version of uh it's it's like what I write I think I think I can explain it a little better what Isaac is basically trying to say is like this is a very simplified way of explaining it but if you were a cow would you be okay with having that sort of treatment be done to you where you're brought into the world you're forced into confined spaces and then eventually you're just going to be slaughtered for me like would you be okay with that sort of treatment see but but here's like to go back to the point I said when you said about some meat the human in the meat of a cow the reason I think that's completely different is is species it's our own species of plus okay it's been like like said that if you eat humans it's very unhealthy it's not a really healthy thing to do not saying that eating a cow is better than eating a fucking bowl of lentils I'm not a male yes so so there so what you've done there is you put out two differences right so the first is species and the first is health right so you're saying okay so species if an alien species that you're not of our species so we're going to Holocaust you presumably you wouldn't accept that reasoning so it would be a double standard to say you know something else isn't of our species so we're going to Holocaust it and then the other one well just let me get the health and you can come in for as long as I want and then with health I mean if it were healthy to eat a human would that justify tactically if not then you can't appeal to help again without creating a double standard but so for the for the health thing honestly I completely I know you mentioned that - I completely agree with the nutritional facts I in theoretical world we could all be vegan and live off that I will never argue that that's that's that's the one thing I want to credit does and II agree with that - yes yeah that's that's the one thing honestly like if we would imagine that utopia where everything is balanced and everything that would be it because we can live off of it I know I might be moving off and hope we get into it later my thing is the implementation of it and that goes into several different layers so let's finish off before I said what's the first point that you want you to also add sir was so always it was about we said agree with the patrician part but what about the other part well you you the two justifications that you just put out for treating animals this way and not humans you're saying it wouldn't be healthy to do it to humans so I mean if it were it still wouldn't justify it so health isn't an argument and then species was the other one and why would you an alien fail Yeah right no I wouldn't because yeah I would be pissed off and like holy fuck we're getting Holocaust it and this is terrible yes again if I'm going to debate any any points throwing in the alien species thing is just saying if I were a cow okay I would be on your side right now but I'm a human so therefore I can't really match that thought process yes it's like saying if I were an alien I'd be on their side right now but I'm a human so I'm not I mean it's you can say that if you want you can say I'm just going to you know kind of dogmatically agree with whatever my group wants to do but you wouldn't accept the exact same logic if it were applied to your group so it's inconsistent mmm for it like what don't you agree that it's inconsistent wait it's a consistent view if you would reject species as a justification for Holocaust in one context but then deploy it in another surely that's inconsistent race inconsistent but if we're going to talk about some like cows vs. dogs through human evolution of people have been companions with dogs and have bonded and we have now that we have them in our houses and everything so we grow up with the knowledge that dog equals a pal and buddy and then you know no cow equals meats or milk all right oh if that's like correct me if I'm wrong here but what it sounds like you're trying to argue is you're sort of arguing from tradition just social contracts between people it's like we have social contracts where basically we've established that it's wrong to kill dogs pretty much like you can see people got it on Facebook like a Yulin Dog festival they just freak the fuck out even people who eat meat like when we see dogs treated that way it's horrible but you're basically saying you're it's almost like you're trying to say that these social contracts make certain things ethical and I just like to nip in there also um and if you wouldn't accept a social contract that you know deemed you like of no value like white people in Asians fuck them then you can't if you can't agent boy or that one oh yeah we'll talk but then you can't deploy social I'm joking but then you can't deploy the social contract feel rejected in other contexts and just one other thing Chris kind of proved my point at the start by starting to talk about the implementation we should in my view we don't have to but we really should talk about the nutrition and implementation first so that we all get on the same page weight we not the nutrition we are on the same page you can be healthy we should probably cover implementation and get to a point that we agree that this isn't physically impossible or even seriously difficult because otherwise we can talk about ethics all we want but you can just fall back to well it's too hard so I think we should probably challenge that I don't think it's too hard and I don't think most vegans would express the kind of difficulty that you express when talking about going vegan alright so to counter that would be the implementation you're saying you'll be very easy but again we're talking about a person by person you know a big well not what I want like not very easy I'm not saying that I'm saying oh great stories often I'm just saying it wouldn't be it's not it's not I mean I think it's pretty easy but it wouldn't be absurdly art it wouldn't be it wouldn't be a real serious challenge if you see this the trial would be I didn't yeah well other transition to get let's say you know Asian people who are fishing right now or who are living off snakes in the woods or like you wouldn't you wouldn't call someone who's surviving actually by hunting like a person who's purchasing meat and doesn't care what's happening you would say well there's snakes in their backyard so they're murdering the snakes there for it to eat it therefore to survive and now globally to do this a bit if we start in the West I mean that's one thing but global appear globally the the implementation seemed so far away like hundreds of years away and like and like I think so let's say if we started in the West here I know there's place like India they've done vegan diets and everything - I will admit I'm not the generation that's going to be the vegan you guys are you guys have have done that I'm going to accept all the the flaws that might come to high cholesterol my direly err that's just my personal decision I accept all that right um so let's hypothetically say that at least we were able to get a few people in the West here to start doing this now if I may expand globally like Eddie was saying how would you get the the farmer in Thailand who like again kill snakes or no they they've grown up that way for generations that's how they have to do it because you know in the West we have all they need to take the pills we do we have access to it so we can do it here but how we get the rest of the world was not on board like Japan who is just unnecessarily whaling which again I I'm against who they just they got supposed to and they just they already went and done it and this way why they bring the whole on let me say through just destroying the Pacific Ocean have taken so much fish in everything and then I've been getting it a chance to replenish so obviously that's wrong my point is when we gets that global stage how are we going to convince like people like Asians and that to stop doing that I just I don't see the transition okay well I just want to say one thing we can talk about how to encourage other populations in areas where it's difficult like I mean Eskimos they are living off like you know fish and all sorts of shit the food out there is flown in it costs a whole bunch is pretty impractical but I would say first of all neither of you guys are in that situation so you can't really appeal to that when you're talking about yourself true yes no I would right and you were trying to butt in with something right there I feel like you maybe were even going to make a vegan point where you can ask him that I was failing and not the clock yeah why are you fine with with Wells being killed but not other fucking animals why is that animal in particularly like not okay yeah yeah and one other thing I noticed that you just mentioned that your problems are you know the the ocean and the cholesterol you didn't mention the Holocaust so I mean I tend to think that you're kind of avoiding that a bit in your mind who made or not me on are talking Krista all costs of protocol Holocaust of the animals but yeah like by the dictionary others gone oh that's our suspected joking you're serious about the Jews oh I'm talking about the animal Holocaust Oh sounds like we're we're acting like we're talking about animals not the human no okay so the question is if I guess why I have a problem with the whales but not and they're not here i as a meat-eater there is a population that you can't take because it's like any resource so if you're taking and pulling from a resource it's going to destroy it so I guess my thing is not with the actual act of killing but how much you are taking with it now if you're going to get me on the killing thing again I will I will not be able to argue against that because that is the whole point and I won't be able to that's the part that I fully admit come up short as a meat-eater because I see that is necessity my point comes when you have an ecosystem and you are constantly pulling from it and much of the same way for humans which is the idea of veganism there's already too many people on this planet so what happens when there's too many people and there's not enough resources so that's what happens with the foreigner so anyways my point is for that for that is I am against the killing of the whales and the purging of the ocean because it's not going to be a renewable source okay so it's environmental it's not ethical and I think Richards probably want to hit you pretty hard on that saying it's necessary because not necessary well like a first of all when you're talking about specific animals like whales I'd argue the you have a particular problem with it is more to do with your own lifestyle because you I'm pretty sure you don't eat whale so it's pretty hard for you to justify in your own mind like okay like why the hell should we eat a whale like you never eat whale so I think that this has like your opinion on this has more to do with your own behavior and if you were to like talk to Japanese people who actually eat whale they'll tell you they'll give you a very similar explanation for why like the same sort of explanation that you'd give for eating beef they'd give you the same sort of explanation for eating whale like they just don't really care they're not really attached to cows or animals in particular they like the taste things like that they don't really care about their own health and the other issue with environmentalism like the animal agriculture industry is the main cause of deforestation so if you're going to like argue okay well whales are a specific case because you're taking away from the ecosystem you're taking away from the ecosystem when you're eating just normal meat well that's my point though I if I lived over there all eat whale if I lived up north I eat whale so I see it the same way the way I'm looking at it is there's the population of whales is dropping and it's not necessary for the survival of the species I'm not looking in that sense doesn't sustain it ok ok so as an eating okay because I I would look at that the same way I look at a cow over here I'd separate myself like if I'm eating well I'm eating whale because that's what I have to do to survive I don't north I'm eating well I'd look at it the same way ok so you're saying like this is a little confusing you're saying that you're fine with eating certain animals as long as it doesn't ultimately lead to the collapse of our own species so that's like a worry for you with the whole environmental problems with wind are not our own species I'm saying from the whale species meaning he's saying he's saying if there was a whale farm and there were like way more whales and didn't matter he probably might identity okay that's that's like attacking endangered species an unwanted species to go extinct my money my earring like I saw their sustainability in an ecosystem like you again just okay you know it troubles you more that whales are getting near extinction but if you're like eating cameras it's more of a replenishable resource correct yeah and just just to ask you are you guys are you guys already of the opinion that it's not ethical and not justifiable but you just aren't personally interested in changing I'm kind of getting that right now I say I say me more than Chris definitely is Chris above a point when I was debating him in the vegan perspective I was playing devil's advocate I was trying to explain to him about mmm like he do brought up the how could you kill an animal and and like like if it was quick and painless and that's fine and my thing was it's still dead how how how soft do you like your murder if I shot you in the head right now yes would that be would you be okay with that compared to if I slit your throat yeah good point for them yeah so so sorry just just to be clear you you are both of the opinion that it's not ethically justifiable or not I think it is and here's why when I think it is justifiable or is not oh is it and I'll explain why and he was my logic when I I quit being a begin provide so I explained on the first part of the stream that's now erased that I used to be begin and and my hair started falling out of after six months and and Richard Gere said I probably didn't have enough fat in my diet therefore I obviously wasn't doing everything a hundred percent right so I understand that and then my point was convenience a factor on it right so the convenience factor I sort of put it parallel with something like using a phone made by a child slaves now I love my phone I don't need a phone but I love my phone and I know some kid in Africa jumped into a fucking mine and dig out some pieces of and there's some Asian so Asian slave just like try to make up phone and he's like 5 being paid like 5 cents an hour probably dies at 20 um I've had to be able to justify the suffering of human beings for my own convenience now am i saying that's good and right and I'm like fuck yeah fuckin dude in Africa who's five years old making my phone no of course not I'm saying it sucks it's like making my life better for for and having to have fucked someone else's life up that's something we all do when we're on computers and way out ok respond to that yeah so this to me sounds like an appeal to futility fallacy if you're going to cause suffering in one aspect of your life then it's justified to cause suffering in another aspect like the thing is virtually every piece of technology you own is going to have some sort of not so fair trade going on like coltan that's the big one from I think it's like birria or somewhere where it's most concentrated or the Congo like the people that are being exploited as fuck but coltan is in like freaking everything phones laptops computers cameras like we need the sort of stuff like this we're not going to just completely get a get rid of technology so you can justify some amount of exploitation in that sort of area of your life like if you're you know I think you're a professional youtuber or whatever like you need a phone a camera stuff like that so it might be justified to contribute to that sort of industry but what the hell does that have to do with what you eat nothing all right I have one thing to respond to that um so basically you're saying I need my phone anemic AB and them and the markets already there and etc etc then if I cared about suffering so much then why am I not you know making a an idea for implementation of non child slaves being the ones who do that why don't we get people over you know what I entreat you're improving yeah yeah so but but why why do we still let it happen and that's the idea with the implementation of a video of being obedient and and how the meat industry has been dropping over the years because more people are vegetarian and ASSA and that is a slow implementation ensure this industry of child slaves that's dropping and that's fantastic but again the implementation takes a long time and I believe well a lot of you can write and have the perspective well that's I'm gonna be here and it does take longer if people wait I got a after you stir like we're specifically I thought we were specifically talking about you though like why you're not vegan like implementation a global scale that's one thing but like specifically about you I'm saying all of that is that they're declining that line of reasoning doesn't isn't an adequate justification for consuming animals and let me hop in there to you all so I'm assuming that you don't think driving a car is murder even though transportation reliably kills millions of people per year right yeah yeah you must acknowledge a categorical separation between causing death indirectly and actually directly murdering something mmm like may I say also also one thing like I know the whole suffering about the amount of meat I eat would be comparable of one cow every couple years so that one cow fucking sucks he's dead and it is probably a horrible death but it's made my everyday existence easier and I don't see cows on the same level as humans just like we don't see these kids in the minds doing this therefore we don't give a fuck you know what I mean one cow's death for my great two years I think it's justifiable yeah though okay so by that same logic you wouldn't have a problem with someone saying okay well you know I know some people rape a lot but I don't rape that often I mean look I take one girl every you know few months just give her a thorough raping and it sucks to be that girl I I mean it's probably horrible it happens in a bad way right so you can't really justify well oh I want that one book you can't just buy something that's fundamentally unethical by saying I don't do much of it yeah sure but I I'll hold comparison I think raping a human versus killing a coward too definitely different yeah that's why it's the logical structure though Chris because no no big matter you could make it something that's you know not as bad as raping a coward i watch I watched a short film that you both you problem probably saw someone send it to me where it was like a skit where it's the same thing where some dudes in a kitchen and some dudes can yeah so basically the whole thing was oh he's concentred yes what consent and the other piece of you like but really he asked for consent and but again I found that ridiculous because again raping a human if you can't separate human and animal that is that's where I find the biggest flaw in your argue yeah but don't don't you realize that it doesn't act we're not actually analogizing the act of rape with the act of killing an animal the point is just unjustified action X if I only do it once in a while then it's okay I mean that logic you could plug in whatever you want killing an animal raping someone stealing you've got it all Jenny I don't I don't I don't think so because if I'm again if I'm taking from a resource let's say fish I'm only taking one or two fish every now and then that's fine because the way I look at this is like there is an ecosystem for sustainability either way you slice it the world is an ecosystem there is death there is life animals eat each other and the things it's that constant death unfortunately that keeps everything in balance and any picking a ecosystem you'll move walls from devil you don't anchor you can go system would collapse if we ate plants uh no but what would happen then because already all and this is regardless of veganism or eating me there's way too many humans on this planet to begin with so what is going to happen when an ecosystem has too much there's got to be death so the way I look at death and I pose this question to you as well how do you how do you look at that because the way I look at death is it is a necessity as part of an ecosystem that has gone on since the beginning of time even before there were humans animals are eating each other fish are eating each other we might have the sentience to be like Kay you know don't eat the oh don't don't eat the meat and don't kill them and you guys are fucking living examples of this how you can do it in fighting games don't know how how that much muscle on you good on you you guys are the living examples of it am i that example no fully admit that but that's because the way I look at death and the way I look at the world is in that down and to try and in my opinion to try and stop that I commend you guys because I'm not the guy who's going to do that and also I have one thing to add about the the animal rape thing look yeah on the point before was or Sardi the human rape compared to eating one cow every two years your example would have to match what I said so it would be if you raped one girl but you got sex every single day for two years out of one rape okay well let's say that's the case is it ethical no it's case in point right but the human aspect is where I can a different shape is where in science yeah but there's sorry you finish no I didn't say if I were to if you to say if I fucked one cow and raped one cow like actually fucked it and and I don't even know I'm coming with this I'm still operating caliper second side and you're getting oh yeah I I'm ik waiting I I don't think that's a fair point because they raping versus killing an animal for a resource for food I think those are two separate separate things even though the fall of same formula and I understand with you know so that that's the point record I would agree with the formula but I think the example might be to do so just just saying it's two different isn't really an argument though I mean if the logical structure is unwell you know unnecessary secular causing action X that I would never accept if someone wanted to do it to me is ethical if I don't do too much of it I mean you're either on board with that kind of reasoning or you're not you can't deploy wait not being in for you hang on hang on I know you see it if like if we were able to to say that rape is equal to eating one cow every two year and I'd be ignore that yeah not great the way you're saying that I have to follow that line of logic no matter what no matter what examples were putting into whatever we're plugging into variables and I have to have the same logic no I look at everything completely as its own thing and I make my logic no matter what I'm talking about so so raping a girl I know would be horrible because I know I'm scarring this females life I know it would ruin the rest of her fucking life it'd make me a terrible hostess we're meeting Cal I don't care about a cow as much as the other reason wait you know what it tells but again it sounds like you're saying you're fine with it because you can get away without consequence whereas if it were a human you're breaking social contracts and because you're part of the human species you kind of feel like you're more closely connected with the situation yes yeah and again you said that and that's my whole thing with the human species thing like we are at the top of everything because of our brains and I know you guys and I wanna pee on this too the the the the motor functioning of a cow not saying they don't have emotions animals feel I completely agree except for fish they don't have nerve endings no they not know that they have nociceptors and they they can respond and noxious stimuli so they can feel pain and suffering let's not go down that rabbit hole though right now yeah okay okay okay it's cool I got the other arm then so they have emotional functioning but when we look at the brain function of a human compared to an animal there is and I hope you guys can respond to the whole point there is intellectual differences there are social complexities that are not present and because of that that puts us higher in the chain so because of that hierarchy that needs to be there and is there to me that's enough for me to go I could eat meat so and I intended all over that yes an alien said all of those things to you as a human would you accept that reasoning or would you expect the whole global human population to fight back against the aliens Oh fight back against the aliens we happy because I eat oh yeah so so it's not really consistent is it saying you know we're more intelligence we have deeper we're more intelligent we have your cognition I mean if those things don't justify killing us from someone who's equivalently higher in cognition than humans then why would it work when you're applying it to cows gee I don't know I mean let's look laughs I have one big issue with Omega issue you keep putting comparisons to things that are not comparable just metaphorical what if aliens came by what if you don't go once a year yeah these are our equals of like equal statements there is yet same line of reasoning exactly same logical structure but if we use the same logical structure for absolutely everything that we do in our world we be like really doing the most retarded shit ever I mean I mean you're basically saying that you don't want to acknowledge logic I mean if if you're slightly you'll have tonight you're separating logical go ahead and then I well yeah I mean because what you're basically saying is look I don't care if the exact same logic in another situation justify something I would profoundly oppose that situation I don't care about and I mean that's not really an argument okay I say one thing about Richard how USA fallacies that's a false equivalency fallacy it's not a false equivalence because yesterday okay well why don't why don't you spell out how it's also equivalent because while I think my thing is to your point if you're making that comparison one if aliens are smarter than us they would fucking ruin us and there's nothing I can do about that that's just the end I've got anything to do with the morality well we're talking about morality well I was low whole or jumping around here because I'm addressing what you said and you're holding me accountable for this the logical line of thinking and you said was inconsistent but I am still being consistent because if aliens came down and raped us and killed us well then we have to fight and I bet well they're they're better than I know argument is route it's more yeah yeah yeah that's the assault assume that cell is not holodeck you're literally saying in one context higher intelligence and higher cognition justifies murder or a Holocaust and in another it doesn't blow ok I'm not I'm not I'm not saying look awaiting I think you're understanding me everything no higher intelligent being Beck a modern that on them too and figure out their own morality it we're not yeah we're talking about you know I know I know Isaac Allen I'm getting ruined and that is consistent with what I'm saying because I'm ruining and eating the Cal now they're eating me that's that's like saying like okay yeah no no look do you think that don't want intelligence yeah what's one more thing again there's different contextual factors if you want to say Aryans and rape it's completely different than what we're talking about here we're talking about the animals and meat eating the meat so if you want to take Aryans and shit it's still consistent just I'm becoming the cow it won't know I'm they're losing it here you're losing me there so if you can get me back on that because I'm not sure what I will I absolutely will do so do you think that higher cognition you do you think that higher cognition morally justifies a Holocaust yeah that's going to be up to the alien so but if a title without a leader no no you're not in a second and great what came quick and they're gonna bring a special needs people you're gonna bring a retarded people I think that's fine say I know you in session no I'm gonna drop our bombs that is coming Chris are you saying might makes right okay well let me answer one question at a time so first question to me saying it is there a hierarchy and there is an intelligence level of humans and this is intelligence because if you're gonna go that is good we talk about species here human eats these that's the natural order of things okay and that's what I'm saying and there because of that that is what justifies my need to eat a meat an animal now if that's the kingdom moral act of killing and putting calves in I don't eat veal I don't agree with that suffering that's where I agree with you guys on and I don't I don't eat that but if there's a humane way to kill them and we're going to cost to kill them this is something that's going to happen I accept that as part of being alive that is something I am NOT going to be able to stop with in my lifetime okay pretty accurately I see a you're roaming millennial in a bit here are are you of the impression like do you hold the position that higher intelligence justifies a holocaust that is my critique you we are at a higher social functioning of our motor skills in our cognition than animals that's why we have eaten okay but that's not that's not answered though do you think that higher cognition justifies a Holocaust yes or no yes justifies killing animals yeah okay settle by deny that objects by that logic then okay would you oppose an alien Holocaust of humans yeah I don't think I'd have a choice was about time you guys exactly what that is well one second you're crap all the time you want that is an inconsistent position because I'm not an alien if I were an alien yes yes I am NOT an alien therefore no I wonder how I would say no to what I'm saying right now but I am a human therefore yes these are two different yeah but a man like humans okay sorry go ahead like Andy you seem to have a really difficult time like understanding empathy like the whole point we're trying to drive home here is that if you were in a situation where you were powerless and someone else were going to like torture and kill you like would you accept like do you think that's justified you'd say no but then when you're the one perpetrating violence you're perfectly fine with it look like a so sorry my empathy does range depending on the situation really if I thought if I saw a human like like some old lady being punched out I did what the fuck if I saw some guy who just raped someone being punched out or talking about me in well well hang on so okay so that thing that what you just said is what ask yourself has been doing the entire time it's giving slight modified admit I don't know right now you're you know you don't want to answer that you're no you're you're misunderstanding what he's saying like he's just trying to point out that your argumentation is logically inconsistent he's not trying to compare humans eating cows to aliens eating people like yeah you're are both a college elected yet you're my argumentation is a logic line system my mind everything I feel bad but my empathy does vary depending on what is happening at that moment okay well and II like the thing is if you're going to say that human intelligence justifies slaughtering billions of animals then if you're saying aliens being intelligent wouldn't justify them slaughtering all the human species you're being logically inconsistent that's all I would line it in because I also know what you're trying to do here is you're saying well it would be consistent for the aliens we're not talking about the aliens we're talking about you if you guys would support a Holocaust based on intelligence difference in one context then reject a Holocaust based on intelligence difference in another that is an inconsistent position yeah yeah - as noted all right you know what I'll just agree with you on that and I'm sorry you actually read this online without inconsistency depending or what we're talking about okay I correct me if I'm wrong because I am I am getting lost with what you're saying about this energy we have a logical so forget it again go for it go for it again I eat meat because I'll hire brain function than a cow right that's the reason why okay now wait a second why you eat meat that's just your moral did I want yeah that is rationalities use dairy this is a rationale
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NonZeroSum
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Re: Transcripts for sourcing.

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right this is a rational thing quit Richards saying is on a deeper level it's taste pleasure but just go on whatever yeah I love it for that I don't know blogs with that okay but let's see let's see your attempt to rationalize it though so you don't clear me because I'm trying to understand what you're saying okay well you're the one talking so just say what you want say yes okay I eat the Cal aliens come and eat me yeah I I am helpless I still will have to agree with that because they're bigger than me well I fight against it yes because I have a higher intellectual capacity and at the Cal can't fight back I can so now just right back couch rise to a boil yeah so yeah okay yeah but I'm talking about is coming down given your example yeah I'm gonna fight back so so I am submitting to the to the aliens so just like the cows submitting to me so I in my eyes the Ukraine beef I'm wrong because I'm try understand you here let me fly mom I am following in system instead of me being at the top it's the other guy at the top so I in my my eyes I am following this logic because now I'm the one who's underneath the knife yeah where so where where are you saying my logic is inconsistent well let's let's just clear up if it is because if you support the alien Holocaust if you are going to say I would not fight back against that I would be happy to be killed and I would just submit then that would be consistent is that what you're saying or are you saying that you would fight back I fight back because I have a higher functioning yeah so and so so to cow try to fight back if you try to kill it so that's not consistent because you're saying well I'm a Cal take up a gun to take up arms and organize humans and have that functioning to be able to organize yeah I'm a defensive system yeah I mean can a human take up a plasma blaster and build like sky cannons to fight alien ships we could do the same logic there the point is if you would if you would say that higher intelligence morally justifies a Holocaust in one context but not another then that is not consistent you're saying this justification works for a Holocaust in one context and it doesn't in another I don't know how to make it more great at it economy I just about it here uh D we're still on the alien thing I'm assumin airily yes retards yet another one just said this is like booking an inception right now uh but but so my defense on that would be as a human I'm a bit empathizing as a human and therefore when the aliens come down to do the Holocaust I'm defending myself now if I were an alien I would be on their side and since I'm an alien it's not defense it's now attacked so that's a split so I know how I would have to defend myself as a human person alien would i if I'm gonna a lien attacking that's a whole different mindset so there's defense and attack yeah so okay while everything talked about I think you're getting completely off track here and now really understanding our argument but what I'm getting at here is you're fine with killing and eating animals because you're just more powerful than them essentially like might makes right and you're not breaking any social contracts by doing it like that's basically what I'm hearing and that does not like where the problem is your line of reasoning is completely inconsistent like eat first of all you're not understanding our alien attack analogy like you see the completely clearly not know like the point is pretending it's absurd as an anarchic need because to me there is again I just traced back to ecosystems and biology and science here they're that because of that higher functioning this is the way the ecosystem runs and I accept it okay well I label a that you want to address it if you introduce a ire apex predator then now that becomes the ecosystem and but but the thing is you're appealing to the objective structure of the ecosystem and you're just being like yeah well the modal intelligent most dominant creature will win out in a field on a button well yeah just be going hard that's okay well it's never a good thing to say yes I'm appealing to nature but no look I'm just saying go away I'm appealing to science and how is it that I understand biology look look look wait you're just you're asking you're trying to act like this is a crazy situation crazy scenario there's something unreasonable about the analogy it follows precisely from what you're saying if you're saying that higher cognition justifies a holocaust then in another context you're saying no it doesn't justify a holocaust that is not consistent if you would object to the aliens doing that to you but you would support doing that to the cows that is not consistent and by objective eight if I have to if we all had to fight that's an objection you know what I mean some people will try to weasel and be like oh yeah I wouldn't care I'd let the aliens kill me but most honest people would be like yeah I'd fucking hook a bite at Chris powers doesn't justify a Holocaust to help you with understanding this here don't look at this from the perspective of whether or not you're a human or an orakau look at this from the perspective of some God who doesn't want to intervene in things and is just looking in on the situation like if you're going to say that like what's your opinion on it on that in that situation like is it justified for humans to kill cows and is it justified for aliens to kill humans just because the one is more intelligent than the other well if I was a God and I was looking at what's happening let's say like honors for example I would have I would have looked at all the animals and see everyone hunting each other and then just assumed that everything is going that way in fact I would find it we I find find it weird when I see a bunch of animals attacking each other and then a group of animals just eating plants means object herbivores um well it's different but if I saw this attack I'd be like well those things attack those things and those things attack those things this is just another attacking of that what you're going to say is that we are more intelligent and we can go above that and think beyond that and again we are just accepting and this is like one of the biggest negative things that begins can look at us as a nice that they're accepting the the lack uh the the fact that we have to remove our morality to eat meat that is something that we accept it does that a good thing to accept I mean you could say like look I understand anti-rape activists have a problem with this but we just have to remove our moral aversion to rape in order to get pleasure out of rape like yeah that's not an argument that's just a horrible idea but then again now we're going to my other point where it's I can separate raping a female that's just yet States okay we really need to zero in on this because that is not an argument okay if you're if you're saying that an action which causes suffering which isn't necessary is in one context justified and in a other contacts you'd rejected that is inconsistent so I'm just yet structure we could talk about reef we could talk about something that's not as bad as killing a cow but something that's worse and the analogy would s : goodbye when we get back to the whole point your analogy when you include something like great context now matters so while I can see what you're saying with this logical flow though the form of the tubing of the pipeline you're working with there are different factors what you choose to put into that tubing this formula you can't just shove rape in there versus a eating a cow there's a lot more contextual factors variable I know you guys guys guys wait I can I can clear this up look the the justification that you are offering when when you're talking about rape initially is I don't do it that Ursaring when you're talking about meat originally saying you know if I if I don't eat that much right so the justification in that context you can just abstract it from the context the justification is I don't do it that much if you would reject I don't do it that much in other contexts you can't deploy it in this one and if you want to try it whoa you're trying to say oh it's not a double standard it's it's totally different context that's fine spell out the difference between the two contexts which if present in the other would make them the same context and therefore just by the action in both by rendering the contact identical so for example I mean if you're if you're going to say it's okay like let's just let's just go to the cow right you're saying to it's okay to kill a cow let's go with the intelligence justification because you guys have offered a few you talked about health I talked about difficulty you thought that intelligence I mean there's whole bundle of things let's go with intelligence I mean if you're saying lower IQ justifies killing one being but not another then the justification lower IQ per se is being used inconsistently you're saying it works in one context but not another yes so okay and I think Andy at one point you agreed that was inconsistent are you are you agreeing that that is inconsistent I'm agreeing that it is inconsistent but here's why it because if I was consistent with my line of logic with anything I did so like for bold let's say what I do to edit a video I have a logic of how I'm going to edit a video because I know how to use Adobe Premiere but if I'm going to use a music editing program I have to now scramble that entire logic and learn how to use this program that I'm trying to use my logic can't hold from how I edit videos to edit music because it's too as so many variables that it changes what the thing is yeah so here in total you're in a know exactly where my argument comes in so what is it about editing music which fundamentally differentiates it from editing video in a way that the skills don't apply if you could point that out then it's like sure the skills aren't transferable oh it uses a different program with different shortcut keys there's there's different windows I mean if you can point out that the skills actually aren't transferable then it wouldn't be a fair analogy to make but if you're saying the justification you're using is lower intelligence then you can't like I mean I just don't know how to get any more basic you can't deploy that in one context and reject it in another I mean like any like I want to clarify reasonably setter the point I'm rejecting it is where am I going wrong then with this the point I'm I'm not agreeing with it is hello so you're asking where where you're going what where my eyes I'm still trying to understand where am I going inconsistent then based on both I told the editing editing thing okay well you're saying higher intelligence justify the Holocaust in one context but not the other so that's the inconsistency because of the natural order of things and also is that wrong to say well well I mean what if that's our goal innate crisp that's an appeal to nature fallacy and like I also want to bring up you keep talking about nature the natural order of things animal agriculture isn't part of the natural order of things like agriculture in general just isn't part of the natural order of things know so I don't know how you can even reply that excuse it look natural when nothing with a city intro replace me with the farmer in Nunavut who needs to kill well know farmers in Nunavut yeah they're hunters also hunter in or replace me with again say the other thing is you're not mattering the person yeah that means that side to do that yeah we're going to show you you're not that person we would go okay well I'm not and I'll give you I don't give you that I am NOT and I fully admit that I am NOT that person so for this situation yeah I agree with you I'm not I'm not I am fully surrendering at this point to say yes I eat meat and that's the part where you're going to get me on I already knows I hate I didn't also beginning of the of the show but that's the point iagnosed and Andy got me on that yeah I this is what I do I that that industry now in terms of the other farmer would you agree that they have to do out of necessity I think you guys already said that but what if I'm wrong well on the specific situation I I mean I would have to know the exact context but there are areas where it's necessary yeah and you got me on an inconsistency here so what was your going to say okay so you just used the word context yeah we gave you an example yeah right and you're saying well that's different so in our mind rape being like raping a check is different than eating a steak in context the aliens murdering us is different than us defending ourselves in context yeah but so we're context you seem to not be able to want to usual to know your old arguments let me jump right in there okay so you're you're saying look let me let me just clarify my thinking we're talking about a situation where it's necessary you're talking about someone in Nunavut let's just assume it is necessary for the sake of this if it were necessary for me then I would think it's justified for me so it's not inconsistent well that's the whole point and if you can't spell out the factor which if true of you would make the justification apply to you then inconsistent if you can and it's not how can I throw in I look great I praise me like that I'm going to rape a girl yeah so you're an African child soldier you're forced to rape your sister at gunpoint that would be morally justified rape right what's that different than a cow well I wasn't comparing that to a cow we're just talking about rape right here so you're saying like look you don't understand context like you're saying like there-there you go talking about the Nunavut hunter and you say oh it's justified in that situation because context like yeah as I can point to a fact they're present in that context which if present in my context would justify it so it's not an inconsistent double standard with rape it's like okay I oppose rape if you know if I'll say rape is justified in some context like the child soldier who's forced to rape his sister you know if that were true of me then it would be ethical for me to rape also yes yeah because you have to you have no choice all right well you have exactly button push so so a justification though like they have lower intelligence well if that were true of me I fucking sure as fuck would not accept that like oh don't yeah so so you're saying what like if you were to raise what well I'm saying that the justification you use for saying it's okay to kill an animal in one context but not in another it has to be a justification which if true of your context would just fight for you okay so then how is aliens coming here and fighting us in context with you Nathan well I mean you would reject that you would try to fight back against the alien so in that context you're rejecting intelligence as a justification for Holocaust but then you say it's okay to I don't know if you said this Chris definitely did but then you're saying it's okay to murder animals because intelligence so the inconsistency is you're appealing intelligence in both contexts what intelligence species eating humans is bad for you okay okay well I am surprised so that's okay we just like to go those one by one it's all just lacking we'll go to one by one it's it's not just because one reason if yeah all the reasons stacked in equals MA I my thought process it again when I was about again I was sold against animals dying horrifically I was I was but when my health started to dwindle and the convenience was horrific and terrible that's where the stack started coming back on well I was like alright well I feel bad he's dying but um this is hard to do my hair is falling out I feel weak I feel sick yeah therefore you going in yep okay well yeah so look two of the ones that you offered there when you started stacking we're species and health though those also produce inconsistencies right so if a being of another species want to kill you because you're not of their species you'd reject it so it's not consistent and if it were healthy to kill humans you still wouldn't say it's okay so health isn't consistent either okay but again my answer if you can find my signs main my main point is I can empathize with humans and if you couldn't is it okay to murder you yes if I couldn't okay so it's okay let's just let's just follow the conclusion of that are you okay with concentration camps for the retards no of course not okay so that's inconsistent again so you're saying humans and animals are different okay whoa whoa but you just said okay sorry if if you couldn't empathize it is okay to kill you yes okay so let's take retarded here tilde or something yeah so so certain autistic people can't empathize right so by that logic you should support a nacho it's for the autistics of course duh no because they're human being so now there's a well there's other humans there's still there's cereal if you're going to sit as a social contract yeah that's because that's a social only with the thing that separates us differently is that we treat that's why we are you retweet people with disabilities differently whereas an animal contract who doesn't have we call it whatever you want that's just the way it is man we we are different because we treat people with disability your country that's bad for an animal that an animal does that if they're born with a deficiency they leave it behind that absolutely not true no sir all throughout history people who were disabled were killed just because they were useless this was especially true for the Spartans in mind about today into the well known in Nazi Germany great is is that now if you want to talk about the past yes that they have rights now that is the thing that separates us from the animals do you see that because okay that's not a nail in Indiana look in modern times in in poorer countries like China they look just for a being born a girl they'll literally just abort it or throw it out in the trash like yeah and every day Russians a good friend topic I will talk about the ones that are alive and they make it and they're good the way yes Ethan is completely different I'm not going to treat them like a cow because they're not a cow and I don't eat humans so I don't understand that sure they have a their intelligence is lower than average functioning adult brain but they are still a human being yeah so this is an appeal to collectivism right you're saying it's their part of the human species so if the alien species appealed to collectivism if they said okay well the humans are not aliens they're not part of our collective it's okay to just completely devalue them morally you would reject that reasoning so again it's not consistent okay we're going to have to forget about aliens man yeah no no I don't mean coming forth I'd like you guys can't answer right let's show well no because this is honestly this is the point where I like it's clear I'm losing patience with this clearly because if we're going to talk about reality in the way it is you can call me on aliens whatever nonsense and we're already and I already says it so I submit the aliens but if we're going to talk about what people with disabilities we all were intelligent such fight but I'm gonna die anyway you wouldn't have some gonna die yeah but you would have died yeah but submit is the wrong word you wouldn't submit to the aliens whatever word you want to call it I'm gonna get me killed get all accosted by aliens yes I'm gonna get old whatever your word you want a Fiat and that sucks for me too bad that's the not that's the order of things these guys are fucking smarter I got teleporting shit okay so let's remove aliens for a second and let's just talk about a normal functioning humans and as you said people disabilities I don't fucking et with disabilities because they're human beings and I treat them differently because I have a higher functioning and if you can't see that difference the way I treat someone they might make out the intelligence level of a cow okay but I'm still not going to do that because of that hierarchical or ever human I'm a way our brains work the way we are wired to have that higher two functioning ok crawl to cut they're humans right Chris Chris um without talking about aliens you're talking about a social contract all throughout history different societies have had different social contracts it's just that here in Western civilization we treat retards as if they were humans with equal rights back in Nazi Germany they used to kill people who are disabled Spartans used to kill children who were weak or sickly or too small like you can't claim that a social contract is inherently moral when we've had different social contracts all throughout history like we've had social contracts where it's okay to keep slaves so you take that hold on okay but no no not now I feel like you're pulling the whole slavery thing you can go back to history whatever you can look at anything in here and say so the new breed of social contract is not it well the way we treat them now because I didn't go back so then you agree to stop guys in their garages like there's something you're saying I feel like you're pulling a nice JW here no that's writing what you're saying you're saying history slavery you're going back to yeah they used to kill like that do I agree and I can't empathize no I don't know that that's not your misunderstanding what I'm saying I'm just pointing out that social contracts do not are not a moral justification there are nearly social they're just merely social contracts so you agree with that cruel let's let's just get if you agree with that point you think that a social contract per se justifies an action ok so I'm going to ask you to define social social contract something that the society is on like we're a society agrees it's okay to stone women is it okay to stone women because society agrees no okay so you can't appeal to that without creating a double standard next stoning women again comes not me different no yeah guys got guys you really really need to stop this okay because what you're saying you're saying social contract is the justification you can't say oh well social contract is sometimes a justification and sometimes not that's our your five existence so you're fine with a social contract of slaves network news and damage no say no you are no lay on hand Hannah I'm saying the social construct that's happened right now why you buy your phone why you buy your TVs why do you do all that stuff is because the social construct says it is completely fine to buy merchandise made by seven-year-old Asians right that's a social construct why do you do it when you can be a farmer and not do that because no that's completely unreasonable you're making a salsa analogy that has nothing to do with the social canto that's note that nothing to do with the social contract that's just practicality not everyone can be a goddamn farmer there's seven billion people on here on planet earth like what are you talking about we're not enjoy obviously let's go back because I feel I feel like you're still accepting the social construct no yeah I grabbed a large plate I'll try anyway I know I know exactly what you're getting at look I'm not saying that we space value reject all social contracts or that we face value accept them all we don't it's not like social contract is either good or bad by definition but if you appeal to the social contract to justify something then that is what you are saying yeah but again that's just a slice of the stack that we were talking about let's go through some more of the snack yeah you agree species is not a justification right because you reject the alien Holocaust so species alone doesn't do it right no I I agree with this feasting okay so I mean I don't I just I don't know how to be any more clear I mean really we can look deep like okay you're saying if our God and I'm looking at this you know I'm not I'm saying I'm making fewer you I'm saying if you're you know you don't accept Leventhal Jinlong killing you you yo just by killing up oh ha yeah hold on oh yeah yes it is consistent because I know and I can empathize with my own species online you just think species has nothing to do with our argument that's ridiculous and that's that's the point because I made my point about the way we treat people with disabilities and how we look at them and then you're calling me out and saying just to clarify this what I'm understanding your clarifying that because all agree with this social construct contaminated soil contract you're not not agree with sorry yeah we're looking at you I'm sorry sorry huge difference not agree with appeal to okay i'm by appealing meaning that i agreeing as educational no no no not agree using as justification for yeah yes i i'm appealing to this the way we treat people with disabilities i'm using that as the justification to say this is why I don't eat them okay and for visible I'm understanding that so I'm agreeing to that and then I'm going over here and saying this is the social contract for why I'm eating meat and you're saying that's a double standard correct okay okay look do you think that social contract per se justifies an action what action are we talked out on a kazoo I'm not no no I was like such a big rock going into it I am NOT going to it wait wait wait wait you're seeing wrong in the magnetic tour know like Chris Adam is clashing here man give me a second here cheated I want to try to keep this level-headed honestly because I'm trying to understand your point and obviously I'm ya know failure here so I'm trying to understand your content on social context reddit when you when you when you talk about one thing and then will agree with and then we flip over here I feel that you're forgetting about context and I will not continue to answer if you just throw me and say rape and stuff and not allow other contextual factors to come in if you can you could say yeah I'm disagree with the social contract in this aspect and not the fancy fine when we stroll in rape and everything this there's a whole lot of context and I don't feel that stands any ground Chris Chris it's not a fallacy to disagree or agree with the social contract it's a fallacy to appeal to the social contract per se to justify something if you reject it in other contexts so do you think saying social contract though justifies anything clearly you don't because you're saying well what are we talking about so you can't appeal to the contract but no but then you're dealing in absolutes but okay you have to are you're dealing in absolutes because guess what the world is a shade of gray and there's different people there's all different kinds of people cries okay fairy crystals can I can I try to climb this escape me too one little thing and say yes and no I think that's very very mature done wrong okay Chris but I think I understand the confusion you're having here so you're saying it's wrong to kill and eat someone who's like mentally retarded because you have a social contract with other people where that would be a more like that's just wrong do yes due to the higher functioning of the way we treat them yes okay so you're saying so are you trying to say that because of the social contract we have it is therefore immoral to kill a retard yes yeah or is it just immoral outside of the social contract okay but a lot of the okay little looming there's this line for contracting outside at why am I going to let me wait wait wait wait then then that disclude the higher intelligence point why would I go up by the way Chris Chris Chris so you're saying because of the social contract we have with other people it is wrong to kill mentally disabled people or just disabled people in talking about higher functioning as a species it along W is pretty well when you shift to that point of the species you're kind of acknowledging Richards point implicitly I mean clearly you don't think that just the fact that something is part of the social contract or not tells you whether it's ethical that says we don't wealthy retards because we're not cannibals no guys you're going you're going all over all so that that's one thing why do you guys keep trying to move away from my comparison between child slavery and like that's not going a little rock on China yeah no no let's just like that about to be wanna fight it's not fine for me or it's fine for you to bring up rape for this and then aliens and this and that and I bring up a real thing that's happening no no no no I don't talk about that a bit let's let's talk about child's play anyone strands talking about it let's talk about let's put this in the context of child slavery so are you saying that because in modern times we have social contracts that makes child slavery unethical or sorry let me word that differently so because we have social contracts in modern society that says we shouldn't have child slavery does that make it unethical the social contract the first I mean it doesn't know because we have the social contract does that make child slavery unethical we're trying to get an admission that the social contract per se Wi-Fi or rejecting any I see what you're saying i okay I I follow you're saying that okay and if you're inside you've acknowledged that that is not part of your stack anymore we're just dealing with that one aspect right now okay fine fair enough no okay so you guys are done with the social contract argument but again there is I don't think Chris understands no it doesn't Kristin that's almost wrong unfortunately
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